2017 f150 eco 3.5 on E85 YES A LOG FILE

[cjg454ss]

here is a log of a new eco f150 with the two injectors per cylinder. E85 tested at E70 and pressure and A/F held steady at 12.0 ratio. check out the log. I haven't added any timing but the knock sensor is adding as much as it can.

the f150 has a modified tune similar to a raptor tune. af was rock solid and could even go richer if needed. the last pull is the only one to look at. it was in 6th gear with as much load as we could get. the first couple were with gasoline in there before the E85 got rolling
enjoy.

chris

[metroplex]

I'd be curious to see dyno numbers on the EcoBoost comparing E20 up to full E85. So far every GTDI engine I've come across generally worked fine with E20-E47. Any additional E85 didn't really allow for more boost or timing, it was just easier to figure out at the pump. For E20-E30, my rule of thumb is a 1:3 ratio or about 25% of your fill should be E85, the rest 93 octane. The wideband O2 sensors and the ECU on the EcoBoost will be able to adjust for E20-E30 without having to change the stoich. It takes a moment during idling when the car runs rough, but then it smooths out and you can see the fuel trims automatically adjusting even at WOT.

[cjg454ss]

I can see that, I wanted to get to straight E85 so I didn't have to mix. just fill up and go.

[metroplex]

How's your gas mileage with E85? I find that I don't really see a dip in fuel economy using E20-E30 on a GTDI or even a MPFI engine. With full E85 on my MPFI 3V GT engine, I lose about 4-5 mpg.

[cjg454ss]

I don't really look at gas mileage. my 17 f150 gets 21-23mpg all day running around so I'm happy. last week on E30 I still got over 20mpg for the tank. its worth the loss in mpg vs new pistons

I did the E85 test just to see if fuel system could keep up. looks promising right now. hopefully others will fill up with e85 and start tuning on it

[cjg454ss]

I'd be curious to see dyno numbers on the EcoBoost comparing E20 up to full E85. So far every GTDI engine I've come across generally worked fine with E20-E47. Any additional E85 didn't really allow for more boost or timing, it was just easier to figure out at the pump. For E20-E30, my rule of thumb is a 1:3 ratio or about 25% of your fill should be E85, the rest 93 octane. The wideband O2 sensors and the ECU on the EcoBoost will be able to adjust for E20-E30 without having to change the stoich. It takes a moment during idling when the car runs rough, but then it smooths out and you can see the fuel trims automatically adjusting even at WOT.

The more e85 the better. No rule of thumb here. Pour it on. Livetmois makes a pump for the gen1 ecoboost that allows you to run straight e85

[metroplex]

Where's the testing that shows benefit of full E85 vs E20, E30, E47? Everything I've seen indicates anything more than E30 doesn't really provide any performance gains in terms of added boost or more timing on a GTDI engine.

Theoretically the evaporative charge cooling above E20-E30 peaks out based on direct injection alone. With the evaporative charge cooling effect of alcohol on GTDI engines, the cooling effect peaks out above E50 roughly. But based on testing done on other GTDI engines, there wasn't any real benefit to running full E85. A lot of the tuners I talk to suggest E85 for their forced induction customers because it is easier to fill at the gas station, not because it provided the most power.

But like I said I'd like to see more data to prove full e85 has substantial benefits over E20 through E85. Other GTDI engines have performed best at E20 through E47. I personally go with E20-E30 and do a 1:3 ratio fill at the station, never worrying about alcohol content. The stoich will change depending on ethanol content, and the feedback O2 system takes care of that out to basically E30-E40 based on stock stoich of 14.08 for E10. I can see the system compensate with the fuel trims in my SHO and SS/TC. Heck, I even verified it on my Mustang GT using the stock narrowbands and an Innovate LC-2.

The pumps are almost $2000 and require replumbing and retuning just to make it easy to fill at the gas station. I know a few have been working on the VE Tables for the Xtreme DI pumps, but they are only for certain vehicles and not the SHO/transverse (not that the F-series owners care). I'm running the same timing on my E30 SHO (at 17 psi) as the full E85 SHO's (with stock boost) at WOT. Just saying...

[sc544x4f150]

Did you do anything to the desired fuel pressure? I saw a couple instances of the desired pressure being around 2900psi with actual going over 3000psi. I don't have any experience with the second gen 3.5s but compared to the 2100psi max on the old ones this seems high.

[cjg454ss]

my pressure is a little higher than desired. with in 50psi usually.

metro- this is not really a DI motor, I changed the blend table to add 50% port and 50% DI. everyone knows E85 or even E98 is better at making power than E20/E30 or anything like that.

the data is in my other LS car. straight E85, no intercooler, 1550rwhp on 29psi with twin s480 turbos. E30 wont get that done and would make ashtrays out of the pistons, E85 barely does it. with E98 I can make 2-300 more hp than E85.

if your running the same timing on E85 as E30, your E85 tune needs more timing. its alcohol, the more of it the slower the burn. you will have to advance the flame.

Again this is with a new 2017 second gen. I haven't tuned any old design ecoboost motors. for anyone with DI/PI this will help them on their E85 quest.

so far, 11.0 af and 19psi on the second get with full e85 has rock solid pressure up to redline of 6300rpm.

[cjg454ss]

Where's the testing that shows benefit of full E85 vs E20, E30, E47? Everything I've seen indicates anything more than E30 doesn't really provide any performance gains in terms of added boost or more timing on a GTDI engine.

Theoretically the evaporative charge cooling above E20-E30 peaks out based on direct injection alone. With the evaporative charge cooling effect of alcohol on GTDI engines, the cooling effect peaks out above E50 roughly. But based on testing done on other GTDI engines, there wasn't any real benefit to running full E85. A lot of the tuners I talk to suggest E85 for their forced induction customers because it is easier to fill at the gas station, not because it provided the most power.

But like I said I'd like to see more data to prove full e85 has substantial benefits over E20 through E85. Other GTDI engines have performed best at E20 through E47. I personally go with E20-E30 and do a 1:3 ratio fill at the station, never worrying about alcohol content. The stoich will change depending on ethanol content, and the feedback O2 system takes care of that out to basically E30-E40 based on stock stoich of 14.08 for E10. I can see the system compensate with the fuel trims in my SHO and SS/TC. Heck, I even verified it on my Mustang GT using the stock narrowbands and an Innovate LC-2.

The pumps are almost $2000 and require replumbing and retuning just to make it easy to fill at the gas station. I know a few have been working on the VE Tables for the Xtreme DI pumps, but they are only for certain vehicles and not the SHO/transverse (not that the F-series owners care). I'm running the same timing on my E30 SHO (at 17 psi) as the full E85 SHO's (with stock boost) at WOT. Just saying...

I don't do Theoretical. just because you cant measure the cooling in the cylinder. doesn't mean it is not occurring. the internet consensus is that e85 has to be introduced way up in the runner like a carb setup to give the air time to cool.... that's internet Bull$hit

[metroplex]

So how much timing are YOU running with E85 at WOT? I'm at 26 with E20 to E30 maxing out the turbos. The above wasn't theory. It was the MIT white paper they did for actual testing on a GTDI motor (GM LNF). Also from others that tuned GTDI engines. Your LS was most likely MPFI so the evaporative charge cooling is very different.

[cjg454ss]

I?m creeping up on the timing. I?m at 20 degrees right now and a 12.6 af. Remember the new gen eco has port injection. MIT hasn?t tested a blended injection as far as I know. I will say at 20 degrees I see zero knock from the pcm. It?s usually adding timing. With e30 I see some knock

[metroplex]

Actually MIT modified that LNF for port and direct injection. MPFI by itself does not experience that evaporative charge cooling effect as DI.

I'm at .90 lambda.

[cjg454ss]

Mpfi absolutely does have evaporative cooling. So does a blow thru carb.

So what are you trying to prove. E30 has better knock resistance than e85?

I?m missing the point you are trying to make if any.

[cjg454ss]

Start another thread if you would to discuss this. This thread was started to post finding of e85 in the new ecoboost engine with port injection. Not to argue about which fuel is better.

Have you even ran an ecoboost on straight e85?
If not ....it?s hard to argue any point due to you basing it on something you read on the internet.

[kris5597]

OP, I think what Metro is trying to say is that more timing doesn't always mean more power. That the power difference between e30 and e85 is minimal on these types of setups, not talking about your 1500hp setup, that's a different animal. On your 17 3.5 Eco, do you know if the added timing you are running on full e85 is making more power than the timing you would see on e30? Like dyno comparison or track slips?

I too tune for 50/ 50 PI/ DI blending on fueling but mainly to relieve the HPFP from working so hard. I am seeing up to 14 degrees of ignition advance on just an e30 mix on the 17s I tune, even with scalding Charge temps from the factory intercooler not being able to keep up.

Kris

[cjg454ss]

OP, I think what Metro is trying to say is that more timing doesn't always mean more power. That the power difference between e30 and e85 is minimal on these types of setups, not talking about your 1500hp setup, that's a different animal. On your 17 3.5 Eco, do you know if the added timing you are running on full e85 is making more power than the timing you would see on e30? Like dyno comparison or track slips?

I too tune for 50/ 50 PI/ DI blending on fueling but mainly to relieve the HPFP from working so hard. I am seeing up to 14 degrees of ignition advance on just an e30 mix on the 17s I tune, even with scalding Charge temps from the factory intercooler not being able to keep up.

Kris

more timing will always add power until you start to detonate. don't worry about the charge temp. E85 likes 175 degrees. until you get higher than that don't worry much. one of my cars with a 106mm turbo runs at 250 degree intake temp. makes big power for over 8 years and never hurt anything. runs bottom 5s in the 1/8 in street trim.

[Johnson Tuning]

You can over time the engine on Ethanol very easily. Hence 'more timing doesn't always mean more power'. Ford makes it very easy to know the stopping point (for those without a dyno) by having defined MBT for each mapped point. I'm not sure what you mean by E85 'like 175*'. Just because it is not knock limited doesn't mean it is ok to have excessive charge temperatures. You can only use ethanol's latent heat of vaporization so much to help with charge temperature; it doesn't have the same properties of methanol where that would be 'ok'.

[kris5597]

You can over time the engine on Ethanol very easily. Hence 'more timing doesn't always mean more power'. Ford makes it very easy to know the stopping point (for those without a dyno) by having defined MBT for each mapped point. I'm not sure what you mean by E85 'like 175*'. Just because it is not knock limited doesn't mean it is ok to have excessive charge temperatures. You can only use ethanol's latent heat of vaporization so much to help with charge temperature; it doesn't have the same properties of methanol where that would be 'ok'.

Yessir, thank you for a better explanation.

[cjg454ss]

I mean that on E85, you CAN have too cold of an intake temp. we found that out on the race cars with Air water intercoolers. when temps were below 100* we didn't gain anything and didn't lose power until up after 175*. this was backed up by dyno results also and track times . Also we lost no ET or mph and had the most consistent runs at 175*ish temps. again these are at 4.6-5.2 second 1/8 miles passes non DI engines.

here is google copy/paste. "Ethanol (drinkable alcohol) boils at 78.4 celsius, 173 fahrenheit. Rubbing alcohol boils at 82.3 celsius, 180 fahrenheit."