Stock tune 2015 ecoboost closing throttle

[mJolnir]

First time working with an ecoboost vehicle, its a 2015 ecoboost mustang, the car has a catback exhaust, intake and a turbosmart blow off valve. Started logging it and noticed that the throttle does not stay 100% open at WOT, is this their normal operation or is this caused by any of the mods?

it keeps gettting throttle angle source "TQ red<Driver Demand" and on driver demand limit source i get "Comb Stab Limit" does this means i need to input higher values on the driver demand tables or the combustion stability table?

if its not any of the above what is the work around this?

In this log you can see from 13:56 to 14:11 where it does it
stock0.hpl

the stock file i pulled from the car
stock 0.hpt

[Trent_Petersen]

A 100% stock and a properly tuned vehicle will vary the throttle to maintain a consistent boost level even at WOT. The ECU uses the throttle along with the BOV and wastegate to control boost. The throttle closing is much faster for controlling boost spikes than the wastegate. There are plenty of tuners on the forums here that are hacking away at the ECU to get the throttle to stay open, but the tuners I consider to be more reputable on here are advising against it.

With all that said, this could be some helpful reading even though its written for the transverse 3.5. https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...-Tuning-Guides When you start hitting limits its just a game of wack-a-mole. You raise one limit just to have the next one hold you back until you reach your tuning goals.

[mJolnir]

A 100% stock and a properly tuned vehicle will vary the throttle to maintain a consistent boost level even at WOT. The ECU uses the throttle along with the BOV and wastegate to control boost. The throttle closing is much faster for controlling boost spikes than the wastegate. There are plenty of tuners on the forums here that are hacking away at the ECU to get the throttle to stay open, but the tuners I consider to be more reputable on here are advising against it.

With all that said, this could be some helpful reading even though its written for the transverse 3.5. https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...-Tuning-Guides When you start hitting limits its just a game of wack-a-mole. You raise one limit just to have the next one hold you back until you reach your tuning goals.

thank you, earlier i found that guide along with cobb tuning guide, i already read cobbs guide and just started reading this one, in cobbs guide the only mention of the throttle shutting is about overboosts, so im guessing the way to go with this would be to simply add more boost and check timing to get more power

[Trent_Petersen]

thank you, earlier i found that guide along with cobb tuning guide, i already read cobbs guide and just started reading this one, in cobbs guide the only mention of the throttle shutting is about overboosts, so im guessing the way to go with this would be to simply add more boost and check timing to get more power

I'm not an expert on this at all, but I believe that the ECU will start closing the throttle when TIP actual is greater than TIP desired. So ya, the "solution" would be to have the ECU command a higher TIP desired. Solution is in quotes because there is no real problem with the throttle closing, its just the ECM using all of its available tools to do what it's programmed to do.

[mJolnir]

Well, i just got back from the dyno, not a good session at all, tried adding 10% to the driver demand 90% throttle and all i got was less than stock tune horsepower, it started cutting boost to 4 psi and no matter what i changed it kept doing that, so first pass with OAR -1 was 274whp, last pass ended up at 240whp.

heres the log and tune, maybe i can get some light shine on this

log dynoed on 3rd gear
dyno pass5.hpl
tune
lost1.hpt


should i have just added more to the expected tip?
couldnt find what was limiting my boost, changing the combustion stability limit -> max brake torque to 600 lbft seemed to delay the boost cut but adding more didnt do anything else

[Auto-Hentzschel]

There are some problems in your file. you need to increase ALL limiters for Boost, load and torque.
Ford Ecoboost ECU is tourque and load based. It looks on serveral tables and limiters to built an dynamic boost. Using the Throttle body for fast regulation. If you adjust Tables and Limiters for increase your boost, you also need to adjust the wastegate to hold the TIP actual smooth between TIP max and TIP min. Tis is the art.
In your logfile is a lot of under- and overboost coditions. This is to fix.
look to your driver demand source and see, what close your Throttle.
Also, don't lean it out so much! Ecoboost engines need fuel at WOT. The COT is to high for engine run seafty.

[odom1957]

How do you command more TIP? I am only commanding 68in and my throttle starts to close when it goes over. I am not hitting any limits, but can't get it to command more TIP

[mJolnir]

There are some problems in your file. you need to increase ALL limiters for Boost, load and torque.
Ford Ecoboost ECU is tourque and load based. It looks on serveral tables and limiters to built an dynamic boost. Using the Throttle body for fast regulation. If you adjust Tables and Limiters for increase your boost, you also need to adjust the wastegate to hold the TIP actual smooth between TIP max and TIP min. Tis is the art.
In your logfile is a lot of under- and overboost coditions. This is to fix.
look to your driver demand source and see, what close your Throttle.
Also, don't lean it out so much! Ecoboost engines need fuel at WOT. The COT is to high for engine run seafty.

During the WOT part lambda stayed between 0.79 and 0.83 i tough that was ok on fuel, Catalitic life does not worry me since the catless downpipe should arrive by next week.

Where im lost is that on the firs pass, with the stock tune it went to 248 Kpa, but on the 5th pass with added torque to the driver demand the most i got was 223 kpa, the "driver demand source" when it cuts boost on pass 5 reads "exhaust temp control" but on the stock tune pass the catalist temp was higher than the modded pass, TIP desired was also higher on the stock tune than the modded one, so im asking for more torque and its giving me less boost.

i am no longer triyng to open throttle to 100% and keep it there, what i want is to get it to hold 227 kpa to redline, so later i can add more boost as i see that cobb tunes state that they hold 235 Kpa (around 19.5 psi) of boost to redline.

[Puggyberra]

During the WOT part lambda stayed between 0.79 and 0.83 i tough that was ok on fuel, Catalitic life does not worry me since the catless downpipe should arrive by next week.

Where im lost is that on the firs pass, with the stock tune it went to 248 Kpa, but on the 5th pass with added torque to the driver demand the most i got was 223 kpa, the "driver demand source" when it cuts boost on pass 5 reads "exhaust temp control" but on the stock tune pass the catalist temp was higher than the modded pass, TIP desired was also higher on the stock tune than the modded one, so im asking for more torque and its giving me less boost.

i am no longer triyng to open throttle to 100% and keep it there, what i want is to get it to hold 227 kpa to redline, so later i can add more boost as i see that cobb tunes state that they hold 235 Kpa (around 19.5 psi) of boost to redline.

So you have several things going on that are contributing to the results you're seeing. in psuedo order:
-The kpa/boost difference you're seeing is because of the limiters combined with the octane learned average (ecoboosts limit load depending on octane as well). If you have the beta the write calibration doesn't reset the octane learned average, if not you'll have to drive for ~5-10 miles to get it to 'relearn'.
-The Boost cut you're seeing at the very end of your gear is due to the exhaust flange temp inv under fuel -> temperature control. I found (from a suggestion of another poster) that you have to max this table to prevent it popping back up. even if you're hitting ~2.2 air load and the table is set to 3.3 you can still hit it. You will probably also start hitting turbo 2 fmem pretty soon with your turbo airflow limit (assuming you raise your outlet pressure, though don't take it above ~29.5 or you can hit spikes during shifts that go past the max range of the cars sensors and will put it in overboost limp mode)
-As for holding more boost focus more on a limit of boost/airload you don't want to go over and leave that limit in place, don't get worried yet about 'hitting a target', you still have several limiters to work around/through before you get to your goals. Also on boost you probably want to re-enable your blow off valve, it won't limit the boost you make but may cause overboost conditions if its not used.

Speaking to those limiters the 2 areas holding you back right now are the LSPI Reduction under torque management (mainly nominal, high, and fmem), and under transmission -> torque management. The tranmission is going to be youre 'hard cap' limiters at the moment, with the LSPI tables being your next biggest limit.

On the transmission you will probably want to disable/raise most the tables under TCC Limit, Torque Trunction, Torque Limit, and Rate Limiting. Some of those you won't see the effect of doing a dyno pull, but they will heavily limit your 1st and some of your 2nd gear.

That should be enough for you to see significant progress and continue tweaking on the tune side. On the logging side you've got too many pids for decent resolution on some of your important ones, you also are missing some you want to track. You need manifold charge temp, injector window (miliseconds), and I'd highly suggest logging desired load from torque. The last pid will just tell you if you're driver demand and/or torque limits are raised enough to get you to the air loads you want, then if you're not hitting them you know its from a 'safety' limiter and not from a driver demand or max torque limit.

If you get stuck somewhere else let me know and I can try to help, my ecoboost experience is from a 2.7 F-150, but it looks like the strategys are very similar.

[mJolnir]

So you have several things going on that are contributing to the results you're seeing. in psuedo order:
-The kpa/boost difference you're seeing is because of the limiters combined with the octane learned average (ecoboosts limit load depending on octane as well). If you have the beta the write calibration doesn't reset the octane learned average, if not you'll have to drive for ~5-10 miles to get it to 'relearn'.
-The Boost cut you're seeing at the very end of your gear is due to the exhaust flange temp inv under fuel -> temperature control. I found (from a suggestion of another poster) that you have to max this table to prevent it popping back up. even if you're hitting ~2.2 air load and the table is set to 3.3 you can still hit it. You will probably also start hitting turbo 2 fmem pretty soon with your turbo airflow limit (assuming you raise your outlet pressure, though don't take it above ~29.5 or you can hit spikes during shifts that go past the max range of the cars sensors and will put it in overboost limp mode)
-As for holding more boost focus more on a limit of boost/airload you don't want to go over and leave that limit in place, don't get worried yet about 'hitting a target', you still have several limiters to work around/through before you get to your goals. Also on boost you probably want to re-enable your blow off valve, it won't limit the boost you make but may cause overboost conditions if its not used.

Speaking to those limiters the 2 areas holding you back right now are the LSPI Reduction under torque management (mainly nominal, high, and fmem), and under transmission -> torque management. The tranmission is going to be youre 'hard cap' limiters at the moment, with the LSPI tables being your next biggest limit.

On the transmission you will probably want to disable/raise most the tables under TCC Limit, Torque Trunction, Torque Limit, and Rate Limiting. Some of those you won't see the effect of doing a dyno pull, but they will heavily limit your 1st and some of your 2nd gear.

That should be enough for you to see significant progress and continue tweaking on the tune side. On the logging side you've got too many pids for decent resolution on some of your important ones, you also are missing some you want to track. You need manifold charge temp, injector window (miliseconds), and I'd highly suggest logging desired load from torque. The last pid will just tell you if you're driver demand and/or torque limits are raised enough to get you to the air loads you want, then if you're not hitting them you know its from a 'safety' limiter and not from a driver demand or max torque limit.

If you get stuck somewhere else let me know and I can try to help, my ecoboost experience is from a 2.7 F-150, but it looks like the strategys are very similar.

Success!!
went back to the dyno, eliminated the torque management from the transmission side, then equaled the high rpm part of the torque request to the mid range rpm, lifted the lspi a bit from mid to high range, thi time im catless so i disabled cat temp control and it held boost all the way to red line!

the dyno was almost closing so i didnt have much time, so i added 15% to the driver demand, lifted a bit more the lspi tables and added 1* timing, didnt seem to affect the requested load or the MAP reading but still gained 7 whp, but by the end of the session i gained 40whp over the stock 270whp pass.

Ended up at 267whp and 300 tq, so im at the same power as my stock tune OAR -1, but with OAR 0

now, next questions are:

-How do i add more boost?
-On the last pass i got "part throttle" on the driver demand limit source, what does this means?

experiment4.hpt
dyno dp4.hpl

[Puggyberra]

Success!!
went back to the dyno, eliminated the torque management from the transmission side, then equaled the high rpm part of the torque request to the mid range rpm, lifted the lspi a bit from mid to high range, thi time im catless so i disabled cat temp control and it held boost all the way to red line!

the dyno was almost closing so i didnt have much time, so i added 15% to the driver demand, lifted a bit more the lspi tables and added 1* timing, didnt seem to affect the requested load or the MAP reading but still gained 7 whp, but by the end of the session i gained 40whp over the stock 270whp pass.

Ended up at 267whp and 300 tq, so im at the same power as my stock tune OAR -1, but with OAR 0

now, next questions are:

-How do i add more boost?
-On the last pass i got "part throttle" on the driver demand limit source, what does this means?

experiment4.hpt
dyno dp4.hpl

Hey mJolnir, I'm going to preface this with saying I haven't gotten to toy around with an ecoboost Mustang, with that out of the way heres where it looks like you're hitting limits:
Load Limits mJolnir.jpg

The part pedal seems to 'clip' with your current load, on the 2.7L F-150 in the stock cal that limit is set to 3.0 air load, so I've never seen it pop up.

The combustion stability you're getting is because your manifold charge temps are getting pretty high (especially on the second pull) and you're weighted heavily on the 150 degree row. You either need to let the car cool before doing the pull, or raise the load limits in the 150 row.

The last limit you hit on your second pull was the speed limiter, you can change it under speedo -> limiter.

Also consider logging throttle position and wastegate duty cycle. They'll give you an idea when you're reaching the limit of the turbo, or if you have a 'hidden' limiter coming into play.

Hope those help, let us know how it goes.

[mJolnir]

Hey mJolnir, I'm going to preface this with saying I haven't gotten to toy around with an ecoboost Mustang, with that out of the way heres where it looks like you're hitting limits:
Load Limits mJolnir.jpg

The part pedal seems to 'clip' with your current load, on the 2.7L F-150 in the stock cal that limit is set to 3.0 air load, so I've never seen it pop up.

The combustion stability you're getting is because your manifold charge temps are getting pretty high (especially on the second pull) and you're weighted heavily on the 150 degree row. You either need to let the car cool before doing the pull, or raise the load limits in the 150 row.

The last limit you hit on your second pull was the speed limiter, you can change it under speedo -> limiter.

Also consider logging throttle position and wastegate duty cycle. They'll give you an idea when you're reaching the limit of the turbo, or if you have a 'hidden' limiter coming into play.

Hope those help, let us know how it goes.

Hello, thank you.
From what i see the 2.7 f150 seems to be pretty similar to the ecoboost mustang, this is a friends car that hes letting me play with it.
I told him i will not be raising the boost from stock until he installs a new intercooler, and maybe i could get him to install a water/meth injection system to be extra safe, so he will drive like that for a while.

Now on to the questions:
I noticed also the fmem activated, but i dont quite get the table under LSPI, is that a multiplier?

[Puggyberra]

Hello, thank you.
From what i see the 2.7 f150 seems to be pretty similar to the ecoboost mustang, this is a friends car that hes letting me play with it.
I told him i will not be raising the boost from stock until he installs a new intercooler, and maybe i could get him to install a water/meth injection system to be extra safe, so he will drive like that for a while.

Now on to the questions:
I noticed also the fmem activated, but i dont quite get the table under LSPI, is that a multiplier?

Hey mJolnir, first off what you're doing in the tune will increase boost, you've already seen it go up some. The FMEM limit and turbo outlet pressure limits are probably the last two in the tune that will keep boost restricted. With all that in mind the load limits based on MCT are an option to use to allow more boost/load when the intercooler is keeping up, but still have saftey margins if the intercooler is getting heat soaked.

With that said FMEM is a limit for your turbo's air flow. The LSPI for FMEM is not a multiplier as far as I can tell. I have mine set to 2.35 air load above 3k rpm, and when I've hit FMEM at less airload than 2.35 it still starts limiting me. You've already raised the table that will put you in FMEM, being the turbo airflow limit under turbo overspeed. Also it looks like you wouldn't be hitting it if the charge temps were a little cooler. To stay out of that limit you'd have to raise the airflow limit table further. I'd first suggest logging wastegate duty cycle to make sure the turbo isn't already maxed out. If/When you do max out the stock turbo is when you will start seeing your charge temps raise quickly during WOT runs.

You will probably also start hitting the Outlet Pressure limit under Pressure Limits (I don't think this shows up as a 'limit source'). From my experience with the F-150 don't set the outlet pressure limit higher than 29.5 psi unless the mustang has sensors that read more than 3 bar. Otherwise you will start triggering overboost error codes during shifts, and they will get more frequent the more limiters you get out of the way.

[KCPerformance]

hi,

i am seeing the same problem... we made custom upgrade turbocharger 2017+ raptor

545HP 715nm torque

i would want more torque in the low rpm.... and in the higher RPM stupid throttle body needs to stay open.....
i am seeing injector limit as well.... anybody any idea how Hennessy raptor 600 would have fixed this, or is it making 550hp intead of 600?

545pk 710nm v3.42.hpl
530 710nm 3.42.hpl

[Puggyberra]

hi,

i am seeing the same problem... we made custom upgrade turbocharger 2017+ raptor

545HP 715nm torque

i would want more torque in the low rpm.... and in the higher RPM stupid throttle body needs to stay open.....
i am seeing injector limit as well.... anybody any idea how Hennessy raptor 600 would have fixed this, or is it making 550hp intead of 600?

545pk 710nm v3.42.hpl
530 710nm 3.42.hpl

Hey KCPerformance, you're hitting atleast 4 limiters I see.

-First one is the exhaust component protection under Fuel -> Temperature Control. The main thing to keep in mind with all those values is that they scale up, meaning the limiting starts at temps much lower than the values in there. That is also the case with the Flang Temp Inv table. In your case with modifying the turbos you probably want to tweak the exhaust temp table as well since you won't be hitting exhaust temps as high with the air load in that table.

-Second is 2 Turbo Fmem which is under Turbocharger -> Airflow Limit. Again if you've redefined the tables relating to actual airflow of the turble (the quadratic tables) it may be causing your airflow to be abnormal. If you haven't you're likley just hitting airloads and inferred mass flows higher than the truck was originally calibrated for.

-Third is the injector limit under Fuel -> General. This is a link to a previous post I made on adjusting the injector window to try and get around the fuel injector limit.
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...l=1#post508670

-Last one I saw briefly at the beggining was popcorn which I would expect to pop up once you get the other 3 out of the way. Getting around popcorn will involve changing the max airloads allowed in your LSPI low, high, and nominal, tables. Assuming you're running 93+ octane you can leave the low table alone and just modify high, with some in nominal as the tables are blended based upon the octane learned average.

If some of this was a bit more indepth than you needed I apologize, without a tune I figured I'd over explain rather than under explain.

*EDIT*
I just noticed the spark source going to cylinder pressure limit, you probably want to raise the values in that table under spark as well, atleast in your top airloads. If spark is higher than you want just drop it from other tables, the cyl. pressure limit can limit air loads as well as timing so you don't really want that to be your 'spark cap'.

[KCPerformance]

Great Thanks !

i change the injection window to 280 degree instead of 220 it was stock and the max duty cycle.
i found a tab that nobody talks about here, the fuel blending, this car has 6 DI injectors and 6PI injectors ....
fuel general.png

this whas original disabled, but i know on the audi's the tuners use it if they don't have enough fuel from the DI injection....
so today i turned it on, and put it to 50 percent DI and 50 percent PI injection :-) should give me more then enough fuel if it works like this.
still need to do the testing, but the car left to window tinter and led bar builder etc etc will be back end of januari after ski holiday....

[Puggyberra]

The 2017 3.5l ecoboosts uses port and direct injection, and the 2018 2.7l should. The raptor I don't know off the top of my head wether it has di and pi or not since it's a slightly different version of the 3.5l. The 2017 3.5's have the di/pi blend enabled from the factory.

[KCPerformance]

hi, i got the car back today.... will see how it go's' on dyno ;-)

[mJolnir]

Hello,
im back with more question, since the last time i got the car to work ok on 22-21 psi but have seen some "insufficient fuel flow" on the driver demand limit source when logging, so yesterday i tried to follow the advice on the "all kinds of limits" thread about widening the injection window, well that worked, it will now go up to 24 psi, but it will also go into some sort of overboost condition that just wont show in any of the sources or throw any codes, it will just go up to 24psi and then go down to 3 psi immediately.

I tried changing some stuff on the turbo section of the tune without any succes, any ideas on how to fix that?

all the limits3.hpl
not working1.hpt

[Puggyberra]

If it's happening during a shift (or sometime when boost will 'spike') you may be exceeding the maximum value for the tip or map sensor. The ecu is setup such that when it sees values at the extreme edge or past the resolution of the sensor it assumes there is an error and puts the vehicle in limp mode.

The easiest way I found to see if that's happening is to log throttle inlet pressure, Tip desired, and map, making sure that you are not logging too many parameters so that you have good update resolution. You are looking for one of those (probably tip) to spike a little high, try changing units to in/hg (30 in/hg is one bar, so a 3 bar sensor maxes right about 90 in/hg). If you see a pressure reading hit within .5 in/hg of the max the sensor can read then it is close enough to intermittently or consistently cause limp mode.

If that is what's causing the boost drop changing the overboost monitor settings won't fix the issue, you'd have to find a way to tune out the boost spike or change out the sensor. It should also cause a check engine light, though cycling the ignition may take the vehicle out of limp mode and turn the light out (code would still be able to be read in the scanner)