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Thread: Stock tune 2015 ecoboost closing throttle

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    If it's happening during a shift (or sometime when boost will 'spike') you may be exceeding the maximum value for the tip or map sensor. The ecu is setup such that when it sees values at the extreme edge or past the resolution of the sensor it assumes there is an error and puts the vehicle in limp mode.

    The easiest way I found to see if that's happening is to log throttle inlet pressure, Tip desired, and map, making sure that you are not logging too many parameters so that you have good update resolution. You are looking for one of those (probably tip) to spike a little high, try changing units to in/hg (30 in/hg is one bar, so a 3 bar sensor maxes right about 90 in/hg). If you see a pressure reading hit within .5 in/hg of the max the sensor can read then it is close enough to intermittently or consistently cause limp mode.

    If that is what's causing the boost drop changing the overboost monitor settings won't fix the issue, you'd have to find a way to tune out the boost spike or change out the sensor. It should also cause a check engine light, though cycling the ignition may take the vehicle out of limp mode and turn the light out (code would still be able to be read in the scanner)
    Finally had a chance to look at your log and disregard all this above, this is not what you are running into.

    You're running into turbo FMEM you can see your driver demand source change to it. I suspect you are running into one of the turbo temperature limits as it seems your air flow, pressure ratio, and outlet pressures should be fine where you're at currently. Try raising your turbo compressor outlet temperatures to get around it.

    Try also logging just air load instead of the SAE absolute load, your current update rate with that parameter is way too slow, if air load isn't any faster you'll need to log a few less parameters. You probably also wand to log waste gate duty cycle so you can get a better idea what the turbo is doing.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    The 2017 3.5l ecoboosts uses port and direct injection, and the 2018 2.7l should. The raptor I don't know off the top of my head wether it has di and pi or not since it's a slightly different version of the 3.5l. The 2017 3.5's have the di/pi blend enabled from the factory.
    hi, i looked again and its manual blend i can turn on and off.... so where not there yet. ....

    we mounted Wagner intercooler , 3" decat exhaust. upgraded turbo's
    so i am been running the car on the dyno for 2days now. making 550HP and 720NM but more 530 and 715 then 550...

    i have some problems with exhaust temp limits and can't get worked around it.

    EDIT no TEMP limits anymore i think thats sorted. now its popcorn5 and turbo fmem
    but something is wrong with the torque stuff... no idea what

    Attachment 76962
    Attachment 76963
    Attachment 76964
    Attachment 76965

    Ford Raptor ecoboost Nr1 2017 0km org mod 4.hpt
    515pk run 63 versie4.hpl
    Last edited by KCPerformance; 02-09-2018 at 07:05 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    Finally had a chance to look at your log and disregard all this above, this is not what you are running into.

    You're running into turbo FMEM you can see your driver demand source change to it. I suspect you are running into one of the turbo temperature limits as it seems your air flow, pressure ratio, and outlet pressures should be fine where you're at currently. Try raising your turbo compressor outlet temperatures to get around it.

    Try also logging just air load instead of the SAE absolute load, your current update rate with that parameter is way too slow, if air load isn't any faster you'll need to log a few less parameters. You probably also wand to log waste gate duty cycle so you can get a better idea what the turbo is doing.
    i have other logs with wasgate duty cycle, the most i have seen is 0.8 just before gear change.
    my friend does tell me he gets the overboost limp mode from time to time
    Last edited by mJolnir; 02-12-2018 at 09:25 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mJolnir View Post
    i have other logs with wasgate duty cycle, the most i have seen is 0.8 just before gear change.
    my friend does tell me he gets the overboost limp mode from time to time
    are you using the latest beta?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastPlace View Post
    are you using the latest beta?
    I am no using the latest beta, im using the 3.6.26 version, i believe its the latest non beta available version.

    Now to my latest findings:
    overboost limp mode is happening if TIP actual goes over 42psi, it will go away with just cycling ign on and off.

    Now the problem comes because the knock octane modifier in ecoboosts not only works the ign timing around but it also works the boost, while i can tune tthe TIP to be just bellow 39psi, whenever the knock octane rating starts moving towards -1 it will go into overboost mode and acording to the ecu that makes the car a 17sec 1/4 mile car

    how can i work the knock octane modifier so it will not add more boost, but take it away when going into positive numbers?
    as i understand it works it will add timing and boost when negative, is it possible to have it just add timing and not boost?
    if i go to engine DTC and set the overboost code to no error, will that stop the car from going limp mode?

  6. #26
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    Disabling the overboost warning in the engine diagnostics won't have an affect on the limp mode because it's a different type of overboost. It's going into limp mode because you're tip is exceeding the maximum the sensor can read. Despite that it says overboost when you read the dtc's it's more a situation where the ecu thinks there's an error with the sensor. The 'normal' overboost situation is just the engine generating more boost than the ecu is requesting and/or predicting.

    As for the boost pertaining to octane modifier that should be controllable with your lspi tables. There's a table right under them that shows which lspi table the ecu is blending vs the learned octane rating, generally a value greater than .8 or -.8 will completely use its corresponding table, 0 would use nominal, moving towards -1 will you use and moving towards +1 will use low. If you want the same boost numbers no matter the octane just copy the same values into all 3 tables.

  7. #27
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    Ok,

    So after checking some logs i think im going back to post #1, how do i keep the throttle fully open at all times?

    Reason for this is that the overboost condition seems to be caused by the TIP going over what the sensor can actually read. During hard acceleration the throttle will only open fully in brief moments, but when it does TIP actual and MAP go to the same level.

    So my theory is that if the throttle is fully open, TIP will actually not exceed 42psi and will not go into overboost, allowing me to go up to 24psi and getting even more power out of this thing.

    heres a log that support my theory:
    overboost5.hpl
    Last edited by mJolnir; 02-16-2018 at 08:22 AM. Reason: wrong log

  8. #28
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    So you're to about where I am on that unfortunately. Limiting outlet pressure max to something like 26 psi will help in most cases, but the limp mode can still occur. You are correct that the throttle closing is what is causing the TIP to spike (since the TIP is before the throttle body), when throttle is fully open TIP and MAP will tend to be the same or very close. As for how you get the throttle to stay open, honestly there's not a great answer that I've found (not saying you can't do it, just that it will tend to cause other problems). If you change the throttle body surface area so the ECU thinks it needs it further open to allow enough air flow you create issues at part pedal where instead of the throttle opening saying 30% for moderate acceleration it thinks it needs to be open lets say 60% (obviously made up numbers). That would make part pedal acceleration jerky and unpleasant.

    The issue seems to stem from the ECU iterating ahead in its expectations, that is (especially during a shift) the ecu expects it will require a certain amount of airflow in the near future, and so it wants to keep the turbo spooled and use the throttle body to control boost the engine actually 'sees'. This works phenomenally in the stock configuration, power feels smooth and linear despite fluctuations in boost that you can see when you log, and also allows the turbo to spool when the engine doesn't need power yet reducing turbo lag. Of course when you increase the boost as dramatically as we are the 'overhead' that the TIP sensor needs for this operation doesn't exist any longer. Reducing TIP actual could theoretically be done a few different ways, reducing or eliminating the torque reduction during shift would have a large impact on the TIP actual by not closing the throttle, of course it would probably cause your transmission to fail. Changing canister pressure FF could reduce airflow allowed into the turbo by influencing waste gate duty cycle, but the cells referenced during a shift are also used during some WOT situations where you don't want boost reduced. Changing the WGDC base table has the same issues.

    Ideally what you want to change is the estimated MFRACT at the expected RPM/TQ requirement, indicating to the ecu that the current exhaust airflow is more than sufficient for the air flow the turbo will be required to make to hit the desired air load its expecting to needs, all resulting in the turbo spooling down somewhat. To my knowledge there is no way to adjust the estimated MFRACT, estimated air load, or estimated desired TIP/MAP, so this method is not possible. I've been told you can eliminate the throttle closing to limit torque by changing the fuel cut torque ratio and spark only torque ratio tables, though I've had no success with those tables, and they could potentially lead to fueling issues at WOT, so adjust them at your own risk.

    Currently I have the outlet pressure of the turbo limited to 26 psi, and raised the torque reduction in the transmission while shifting ~15 ft/lbs so that torque isn't limited as much (while still trying to protect the transmission), as well as speeding up the automatic's 1->2 shift speed. This has eliminated most of the limp mode triggers, but on cold days with low traction it can still occasionally show up. If anyone else has ideas to chime in on this issue I'm also interested to see if there is a definitive fix besides upgrading the TIP/MAP sensors.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    So you're to about where I am on that unfortunately. Limiting outlet pressure max to something like 26 psi will help in most cases, but the limp mode can still occur. You are correct that the throttle closing is what is causing the TIP to spike (since the TIP is before the throttle body), when throttle is fully open TIP and MAP will tend to be the same or very close. As for how you get the throttle to stay open, honestly there's not a great answer that I've found (not saying you can't do it, just that it will tend to cause other problems). If you change the throttle body surface area so the ECU thinks it needs it further open to allow enough air flow you create issues at part pedal where instead of the throttle opening saying 30% for moderate acceleration it thinks it needs to be open lets say 60% (obviously made up numbers). That would make part pedal acceleration jerky and unpleasant.

    The issue seems to stem from the ECU iterating ahead in its expectations, that is (especially during a shift) the ecu expects it will require a certain amount of airflow in the near future, and so it wants to keep the turbo spooled and use the throttle body to control boost the engine actually 'sees'. This works phenomenally in the stock configuration, power feels smooth and linear despite fluctuations in boost that you can see when you log, and also allows the turbo to spool when the engine doesn't need power yet reducing turbo lag. Of course when you increase the boost as dramatically as we are the 'overhead' that the TIP sensor needs for this operation doesn't exist any longer. Reducing TIP actual could theoretically be done a few different ways, reducing or eliminating the torque reduction during shift would have a large impact on the TIP actual by not closing the throttle, of course it would probably cause your transmission to fail. Changing canister pressure FF could reduce airflow allowed into the turbo by influencing waste gate duty cycle, but the cells referenced during a shift are also used during some WOT situations where you don't want boost reduced. Changing the WGDC base table has the same issues.

    Ideally what you want to change is the estimated MFRACT at the expected RPM/TQ requirement, indicating to the ecu that the current exhaust airflow is more than sufficient for the air flow the turbo will be required to make to hit the desired air load its expecting to needs, all resulting in the turbo spooling down somewhat. To my knowledge there is no way to adjust the estimated MFRACT, estimated air load, or estimated desired TIP/MAP, so this method is not possible. I've been told you can eliminate the throttle closing to limit torque by changing the fuel cut torque ratio and spark only torque ratio tables, though I've had no success with those tables, and they could potentially lead to fueling issues at WOT, so adjust them at your own risk.

    Currently I have the outlet pressure of the turbo limited to 26 psi, and raised the torque reduction in the transmission while shifting ~15 ft/lbs so that torque isn't limited as much (while still trying to protect the transmission), as well as speeding up the automatic's 1->2 shift speed. This has eliminated most of the limp mode triggers, but on cold days with low traction it can still occasionally show up. If anyone else has ideas to chime in on this issue I'm also interested to see if there is a definitive fix besides upgrading the TIP/MAP sensors.
    i have a log from a cobb stage 3 car, i noticed 2 things, first is that they actually use a much lower boost lvl than what they advertise, according to the specs on their page it goes up to 24psi and tapers down to 21, what i saw in the log is much less boost, it ended up at 16 psi, and they compensate throwing more timing to it.

    Second is that throttle opens and stays open the whole time, its a shame i cant read any cobb equipped car, the tutorial they have stresses about the wg control to get the results so there must be something to find by going into it

    cobb stage 3.hpl

  10. #30
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    Soo back from the track, my friend got spanked by a cobb tuned ecoboost (12.7@107 vs 12.3@111), the only differences are that the other car has a catted downpipe (we have offroad) and a turbosmart WG (we still have stock).

    Now, installing the turbosmart wg on the tune we had just made it worst with the overboost conditions, whenever the throttle would close at mid range (as they normally do) it will go into overboost so there must be something in there.

    I saw a seminar from cobb where it states how mfract is calculated, i will look into that again and see if there is any usable info in how to change it.

    How do i modify the throttle tables so it stays open all the time?
    i know it makes the car jerky at part throttle but this would be for a track only tune

    Is there a 5 bar map sensor that will plug and play to upgrade the tip, what changes need to be done in the software appart from TIP slope and offset, has anyone tried it so we know its not a hard limit?
    Last edited by mJolnir; 03-13-2018 at 08:34 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mJolnir View Post
    Soo back from the track, my friend got spanked by a cobb tuned ecoboost (12.7@107 vs 12.3@111), the only differences are that the other car has a catted downpipe (we have offroad) and a turbosmart WG (we still have stock).

    Now, installing the turbosmart wg on the tune we had just made it worst with the overboost conditions, whenever the throttle would close at mid range (as they normally do) it will go into overboost so there must be something in there.

    I saw a seminar from cobb where it states how mfract is calculated, i will look into that again and see if there is any usable info in how to change it.

    How do i modify the throttle tables so it stays open all the time?
    i know it makes the car jerky at part throttle but this would be for a track only tune

    Is there a 5 bar map sensor that will plug and play to upgrade the tip, what changes need to be done in the software appart from TIP slope and offset, has anyone tried it so we know its not a hard limit?
    If you absolutely want to make the throttle stay open, you can, but you'll sacrifice any control of load potentially. So anyone who does what I outline here, beware.

    These two will force WOP = WOT mode. I.e. if your pedal is all the way down, stay WOT. Coyote Mustangs uses this for example.
    44373 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Pedal > Pedal Pos WOT Start -> Set to starting position for blend to force WOT. Say 90%
    44374 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Pedal > Pedal Pos WOT End -> Set to position you want WOT forced at for sure. 95%

    However, WOT can still be overridden by air limit sources or torque sources. You can disable this, but again, this will prevent any torque source from overriding WOP = WOT.
    7722 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Misc > TA Source Enable -> Set to 0, or disable all overrides.
    35990 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Misc > Torque Sources -> Set all to 0
    35991 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Misc > Air Limit Sources -> Set all to 0

    Of course other logic still exists that can override the wastegate, like overboost, underboost, etc.
    This isn't a be all end all, but it will force the pedal open provided no other errors occur.
    If its not broke, just give it time.

  12. #32
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    Is the Cobb log you posted earlier from the same car/tune that ran the 12.3? I'm curious how their air load and spark compared.

    The MFRACT is a calculation of how much of the current exhaust flow the ecu thinks it needs to generate the air load/air flow it wants in order to hit its torque target. The interaction I don't know how to modify is the ecu also anticipates how much air load it thinks it will need in the near future and will prespool the turbo(s) to some extent, then control the extra boost with the throttle blade. That interaction is the crux of what causes the overboost during shifting, especially on automatics. The ecu has the capability to vent the boost if it doesn't think it needs it (which you can see if you get off the throttle one the shift starts on an auto), but it will try to maintain a certain amount, and I don't know of any table that controls that retained amount of boost. I've seen mentioned changing the feed forward table, but when I changed it around I could only get the ecu to start at lower boost in gear (it didn't change during shifts), and then the PID system would start adding more boost back in to hit the tq/air load requirements.
    Last edited by Puggyberra; 03-15-2018 at 08:59 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    Is the Cobb log you posted earlier from the same car/tune that ran the 12.3? I'm curious how their air load and spark compared.

    The MFRACT is a calculation of how much of the current exhaust flow the ecu thinks it needs to generate the air load/air flow it wants in order to hit its torque target. The interaction I don't know how to modify is the ecu also anticipates how much air load it thinks it will need in the near future and will prespool the turbo(s) to some extent, then control the extra boost with the throttle blade. That interaction is the crux of what causes the overboost during shifting, especially on automatics. The ecu has the capability to vent the boost if it doesn't think it needs it (which you can see if you get off the throttle one the shift starts on an auto), but it will try to maintain a certain amount, and I don't know of any table that controls that retained amount of boost. I've seen mentioned changing the feed forward table, but when I changed it around I could only get the ecu to start at lower boost in gear (it didn't change during shifts), and then the PID system would start adding more boost back in to hit the tq/air load requirements.
    No, the log i posted is from a OTS stage 3 tune, the one that went 12.3 is a custom tuned car on MS109 fuel

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners View Post
    If you absolutely want to make the throttle stay open, you can, but you'll sacrifice any control of load potentially. So anyone who does what I outline here, beware.

    These two will force WOP = WOT mode. I.e. if your pedal is all the way down, stay WOT. Coyote Mustangs uses this for example.
    44373 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Pedal > Pedal Pos WOT Start -> Set to starting position for blend to force WOT. Say 90%
    44374 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Pedal > Pedal Pos WOT End -> Set to position you want WOT forced at for sure. 95%

    However, WOT can still be overridden by air limit sources or torque sources. You can disable this, but again, this will prevent any torque source from overriding WOP = WOT.
    7722 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Misc > TA Source Enable -> Set to 0, or disable all overrides.
    35990 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Misc > Torque Sources -> Set all to 0
    35991 - Airflow > Electronic Throttle > Misc > Air Limit Sources -> Set all to 0

    Of course other logic still exists that can override the wastegate, like overboost, underboost, etc.
    This isn't a be all end all, but it will force the pedal open provided no other errors occur.
    Back from some testing, didn't work set it to 90 and 95, down to 80 and still closed the throttle the same as it always does
    out of the 7722, 35990 and 35991 only the first one is in the ecoboost mustang, i didn't touch that one.

    Also tried enabling the throttle follower but got the wrench immediately.
    pedalfolower.hpl

    And finally noticed that air load never reaches desired load from torque control, at the start of this log you can see a wot pull up to 120mph
    pedalfolower3.hpl