11-17 Knock Per Cylinder

[kris5597]

Hey guys,

All of the ecoboost cars I have tuned are defaulted or at least have the option to change the knock mode from global to per cylinder. An update not to long ago now gives me this option to do on the coyote engines as well. Like the ecoboosts, the 2015+ 5.0 cars allow for the knock sensors to monitor individual knock per cylinder, which in return, with the knock mode set to per cylinder, allows you to see what each is doing separately rather than one detecting knock and all cylinders get timing pulled from it. I don't have a whole lot of experience doing that on the 5.0 cars but every ecoboosts I do. The reason for not much experience on the coyote cars is because I have never had an issue hitting the targeted timing with the global set... until now.

I recently finalized the calibration on a customers car, this is a 2013 GT with intake, catless header, exhaust, 93 octane car. I have checked everything I can think of but this car always had issues hitting target timing, kept wanting to pull timing, more than I have seen, especially with the setup. To the sum of 21-22 degrees at peak torque and the max of 24-26 degrees at peak power. I figured I would give the knock mode a change to per cylinder to see if this would help. All of a sudden the car woke up and hitting target timing and would advance up to 31 degrees of timing. The biggest concern is you cannot log knock per cylinder on the 11-14 cars and I was receiving no feedback from the knock sensor with adding or subtracting timing. With the fear that this somehow disabled the knock sensor and also not being able to monitor the car, I changed it back to global adjustment on the knock sensor and it went back to the same timing curve as well as feedback from the knock sensor with adding and subtracting timing.

Does anyone have anything to chime in with on knock per cylinder on the 11-17 5.0 powered cars as well as the missing date from the 11-14 for knock per cylinder and not being able to monitor?

Kris

[Jn2]

Hey guys,

All of the ecoboost cars I have tuned are defaulted or at least have the option to change the knock mode from global to per cylinder. An update not to long ago now gives me this option to do on the coyote engines as well. Like the ecoboosts, the 2015+ 5.0 cars allow for the knock sensors to monitor individual knock per cylinder, which in return, with the knock mode set to per cylinder, allows you to see what each is doing separately rather than one detecting knock and all cylinders get timing pulled from it. I don't have a whole lot of experience doing that on the 5.0 cars but every ecoboosts I do. The reason for not much experience on the coyote cars is because I have never had an issue hitting the targeted timing with the global set... until now.

I recently finalized the calibration on a customers car, this is a 2013 GT with intake, catless header, exhaust, 93 octane car. I have checked everything I can think of but this car always had issues hitting target timing, kept wanting to pull timing, more than I have seen, especially with the setup. To the sum of 21-22 degrees at peak torque and the max of 24-26 degrees at peak power. I figured I would give the knock mode a change to per cylinder to see if this would help. All of a sudden the car woke up and hitting target timing and would advance up to 31 degrees of timing. The biggest concern is you cannot log knock per cylinder on the 11-14 cars and I was receiving no feedback from the knock sensor with adding or subtracting timing. With the fear that this somehow disabled the knock sensor and also not being able to monitor the car, I changed it back to global adjustment on the knock sensor and it went back to the same timing curve as well as feedback from the knock sensor with adding and subtracting timing.

Does anyone have anything to chime in with on knock per cylinder on the 11-17 5.0 powered cars as well as the missing date from the 11-14 for knock per cylinder and not being able to monitor?

Kris

You cannot log per cylinder KR on copperhead, at leas it not defined from what I can tell. Also, I would not rely on per cylinder mode when you only have 2 knock sensors...the 18+ have 4 KR sensors which makes it a ideal set up to run per cylinder mode on, but on 11-17 you only have 2

[LastPlace]

Have you checked to make sure you its not false knock from the exhaust touching something?

[kris5597]

You cannot log per cylinder KR on copperhead, at leas it not defined from what I can tell. Also, I would not rely on per cylinder mode when you only have 2 knock sensors...the 18+ have 4 KR sensors which makes it a ideal set up to run per cylinder mode on, but on 11-17 you only have 2

Some vehicles from Ford are defaulted to run knock per cylinder from the factory, even with one or two knock sensors varying from 4-8 cylinders. It's unfortunate that it's not visible on the 11-14 considering it is visible on the 15-17 5.0.

Kris

[kris5597]

Have you checked to make sure you its not false knock from the exhaust touching something?

I personally did not check, but the customer stated he could not find anything. I have personally not seen a datalog with false knock before so it's hard to tell what is real or false.

Kris

[kris5597]

Another confusing deal is that the ecu was adding timing almost up to MBT cap with knock per cylinder enabled. Not sure how exactly the knock sensor will do that if not functioning properly in knock per cylinder mode in copperhead.

Kris

[murfie]

I wouldn't expect much more than an extra 1-1.5* and that is only on certain cylinders. My guess is changing that switch disabled the sensor. I don't think going to a per cylinder strategy would be as easy as that switch. I have not tried it, but have been told you can use a FRPP tune and get the per cylinder strategy.

Definitely make sure its not just some early winter garbage gas.

[tbrtuning]

It is as simple as flipping the switch to go Per Cylinder. I commonly see one cylinder or two cylinders pull timing on a conservative tune where they should all be adding when going Per Cylinder on problem cars like that. I wish we could log it on the S197 because I do some fine tuning based on the feedback on some boosted S550 cars.

[kris5597]

I wouldn't expect much more than an extra 1-1.5* and that is only on certain cylinders. My guess is changing that switch disabled the sensor. I don't think going to a per cylinder strategy would be as easy as that switch. I have not tried it, but have been told you can use a FRPP tune and get the per cylinder strategy.

Definitely make sure its not just some early winter garbage gas.

We have tried several proven gas stations with no luck, even late summer, early winter, fuel quality remains good and the car continues to perform the same, not like any other S197 5.0 I've dealt with. Very strange.

It is as simple as flipping the switch to go Per Cylinder. I commonly see one cylinder or two cylinders pull timing on a conservative tune where they should all be adding when going Per Cylinder on problem cars like that. I wish we could log it on the S197 because I do some fine tuning based on the feedback on some boosted S550 cars.

I feel like if it can be enabled in the copperhead ecu, it should be able to be logged. I will attempt to contact HPTuners in regards. I really don't know what else it could be limiting timing so bad on this car. I even sent the log to a friend/ local tuner, and he thought it was bad gas too, come to find out, it wasn't.

[tbrtuning]

So does knock appear on any cylinder now or do they all add a max amount?

[kris5597]

So does knock appear on any cylinder now or do they all add a max amount?

Knock per cylinder in the scanner is not viewable on the 11-14 S197 in the scanner and when the knock per cylinder is enabled in the editor, there is no feedback from the knock sensor for knock retard in either direction, which is why Murfie believes it disables the knock sensor when in that mode. That being said, I feel I agree with him considering what it was doing in that aspect. But, since it was not reading anything, but still advancing timing is what was confusing me, unless that it was the ECU is meant to do when there is no knock sensor present, which makes sense if you think about it. The only reason for the ECU not to advance timing is if knock is detected. I figured it would have to have feedback from the knock to advance, but I guess not...

Kris

[tbrtuning]

Completely forgot we were talking S197 and that you couldn't log it. I think Knock Advance reports higher even when one cylinder is pulling timing on the S550 but can't remember for sure. If you set knock sensors to 0 it does not add timing. I've done this before.

[kris5597]

Completely forgot we were talking S197 and that you couldn't log it. I think Knock Advance reports higher even when one cylinder is pulling timing on the S550 but can't remember for sure. If you set knock sensors to 0 it does not add timing. I've done this before.

See, and that is what I would have expected. Knock sensor disable, no knock advance allowed. The only way to hit MBT is to target that exact same timing in the borderline table with the knock sensor disabled. Now does that mean that with knock per cylinder active that there is an issue with the software not being able to log or see knock advanced per cylinder or any knock advance or retard even though it is now working? Maybe the knock sensor is doing it's job, we just can't see it? It's tough to say...

[tbrtuning]

I would suspect we it's as simple as them just not having the parameters there to log. Make the sensors really sensitive and set to Per Cylinder to test if you're working on it now.

I'll try to find some S550 logs tonight to see how global knock reports when Per Cylinder is enabled.

[kris5597]

I would suspect we it's as simple as them just not having the parameters there to log. Make the sensors really sensitive and set to Per Cylinder to test if you're working on it now.

I'll try to find some S550 logs tonight to see how global knock reports when Per Cylinder is enabled.

Sounds like a plan!

[carmonch]

Hello gays.

I was dealing with the same Kris issue on a Mustang GT 2009 4.6cc 3V with an intake,headers,ported heads and others Adds . I've been trying to tune the PCM for the best advance sparck in order to get a beat of extra power, however I have been not able to archive it just because of knock, that I can see at the dattalogs, when using the "Global Knock method," these knock retards has been as big as 3.6-3.8- 4.0 at a differents RPM ranges, mainly at high loads, I most to said the driving sensation is that a powerful car.
I've been modifying or adapting the Borderline spark table in accordance with the knock retrd values but still having Knock retards .
Now , using exactly the same tune,but switching it to a "Per Cyl" Knock method , these knock retards completely disapper on the VCM scanner as if by magic!, but, in this last case, the driven sensation is not as powerful as before .
I have been reading all the thread and still do not undersanding how works each of these both knock Methods. Based only in this observations but without some knowledge, I figured too that in these modular engines with only two knock sensors, the Per Cyl Method disables them with the consequent disappearance of the delay but also of the advance that this system provides ; so I'm not certain if the "Per Cyl" method is safe to use in these cars ?.

Can someone guide me in this regard ?

Another question for you gays, which is the maximun value of knock retard that can be permissible for these 4.6cc 3v SOHC modular engine not forged ?

Thanks !

[CCS86]

Anyone else tested per cyl knock?

HPT says they are adding a bunch of new parameters. Maybe some are related...

[veeefour]

Works in S550 - been using it all the time. Can log it too.

[Jn2]

Anyone else tested per cyl knock?

HPT says they are adding a bunch of new parameters. Maybe some are related...

Per cylinder can be abled, it will function as designed how ever you cannot log it on a s197 and it should not be used 11-17's. There is only 2 knock sensors on those engines, 1/bank and you would be relying on that one sensor to monitor 4 cylinders at once, the margin of error is pretty small. On 18+ per cylinder is enabled from factory and works well, although I go back to global when I tune boosted 18's.

[veeefour]

Per cylinder can be abled, it will function as designed how ever you cannot log it on a s197 and it should not be used 11-17's. There is only 2 knock sensors on those engines, 1/bank and you would be relying on that one sensor to monitor 4 cylinders at once, the margin of error is pretty small. On 18+ per cylinder is enabled from factory and works well, although I go back to global when I tune boosted 18's.

Agreed. Below you can see how slow it is:

Knock per cyl.jpg