2.7 EcoBoost Tuning Questions

[metroplex]

The weather and roads have finally cooperated, so I was able to test my first tune for the Fusion Sport which uses all of the info/ideas I obtained from tuning the SHO. I'm able to hit 19 psi boost and flow 42+ lb/min of air mass, and run 6* timing at WOT without knock retard all on pump 87 octane. There's more work to be done of course.

Anyhow, I noticed that in Drive and Sport, the max desired torque is the same even though I only adjusted the driver demand tables for launch and low range. Is there a way to run stock driver demand tables for "Drive" and a different table for "Sport" mode? I was able to do this on the SHO after Eric unlocked the Sport/Terrain Mode driver demand table. I'm not sure if the Fusion Sport has this same setup.

I also found my commanded lambda frequently drop very low (0.78 to 0.82) at WOT but my Power Enrichment tables are not set anywhere near this, and the Cat Overtemp mode didn't kick in. This seems like something I overlooked.

[metroplex]

Has anyone encountered the errors "TQ+ from Trans" and "Torque Steer" in torque source? I think the Torque Steer might be from turning on torque steer compensation in the EPAS/PSCM (which I did just as an experiment).

[Puggyberra]

Has anyone encountered the errors "TQ+ from Trans" and "Torque Steer" in torque source? I think the Torque Steer might be from turning on torque steer compensation in the EPAS/PSCM (which I did just as an experiment).

On the F-150 I’ve never seen torque steer compensation, but I wouldn’t expect to on a rwd heh. The TQ+ from trans I believe I saw when I had torque rate limit still active in the trans, I’ve had it disabled for quite a while though.

The F-150 2.7 does not have separate driver demand tables for different modes, I also have a suspicion the driver demand tables are disregarded at WOT and the ecu operates off max torque limit tables (some strategies have them in transmission torque management and some like the fusion has them in engine torque management). I have not explicitly tested that, but I’ve seen logged ecu torque request higher than (driver demand * pedal map). If that is accurate it would explain why torque request is the same in both modes.

I’ve also seen commanded lambda drop (or rarely raise), though actual stays at my power enrich. My assumption for that behavior is it’s a result of the fuel trims... I honestly haven’t been that worried about it since my actual stays where it should be. Pertaining to fuel what bothers me more (but doesn’t log as an issue) is the dip in injector pulse width during tip in. If you log inj pulse width with enough resolution you’ll see as rail pressure increases timing increases as you’d expect with air load increase, then drops and remains flat at ~2.5 ms for several hundred rpm, then suddenly resumes at closer to 4ms and climbs as you’d expect it to. While that injector timing drop happens lambda actual continues to richen, though logically that is not what I would expect even accounting for the increased rail pressure.

[metroplex]

The torque steer compensation is part of the Power Steering Control Module. I noticed none of Ford's AWD cars have it turned on, but some have the Active Anti-Nibble, Active Return, Soft End Stop, and Drift Pull Compensation turned on. My 2018 Explorer XLT had all of it turned off except Active Return and when I turned them on, it reduced the steering assist somewhat. I disabled the torque steer compensation on the Fusion Sport and I no longer see the Torque Steer message in the torque source.

With my current tune, the Fusion Sport launches as hard as my SHO: like a rocket off the line. No more weird lag or shift lag. But I am missing some tables like the Torque Rate Limit.

How much timing are you able to throw at the 2.7 with extra boost without knock using 87? I'm up to about 13-15 degrees at WOT and it still does not show any knock retard using 87 octane.

[metroplex]

I think there are some tables missing. The desired torque value is pegged at 406 ft-lb no matter what settings I change. On the SHO, my Driver Demand table value matches my desired torque. With the FSport, I'm pegged at 406 ft-lb so if the actual torque goes above 406 ft-lb, it starts closing the throttle plate. I checked the Engine Tq Mgmt and Trans Tq Mgmt and all of the available settings are changed to no avail. I'm also missing the Trans Torque Rate Limit scalar.

[Puggyberra]

I think there are some tables missing. The desired torque value is pegged at 406 ft-lb no matter what settings I change. On the SHO, my Driver Demand table value matches my desired torque. With the FSport, I'm pegged at 406 ft-lb so if the actual torque goes above 406 ft-lb, it starts closing the throttle plate. I checked the Engine Tq Mgmt and Trans Tq Mgmt and all of the available settings are changed to no avail. I'm also missing the Trans Torque Rate Limit scalar.

I request 500 ft/lbs on a 2.7, so 406 max desired shouldn’t be a hard limit, I agree there is limit you’re either missing or more likely isn’t defined. As for spark advance, I haven’t made much Head way, most pulls I show timing being pulled due to knock retard (this is at ~2.3 max air load or ~22 psi). The most advance I’ve ever seen is 9 degrees, most pulls are closer to 5 though, and that’s with octane learned at -.8 -> -1 running 93.

[metroplex]

Almost all of the torque tables under Trans -> Tq Mgmt in the F-150 are missing from the Fusion Sport. Even some of the settings in the SHO aren't available for the Fusion Sport. I looked at one of your logs (V67 I think) and your v68 tune file, and I think your ETC desired brake torque comes from one of the torque limiter tables under Trans (2A / 3A, etc...) which aren't available in the Fusion Sport. So there has to be another setting that's not available with the FSport. I haven't been able to get my airload much higher than 2.15 because the throttle keeps closing from what I assume is the actual brake torque is exceeding the desired.

[Trent_Petersen]

The torque steer compensation is part of the Power Steering Control Module. I noticed none of Ford's AWD cars have it turned on, but some have the Active Anti-Nibble, Active Return, Soft End Stop, and Drift Pull Compensation turned on. My 2018 Explorer XLT had all of it turned off except Active Return and when I turned them on, it reduced the steering assist somewhat. I disabled the torque steer compensation on the Fusion Sport and I no longer see the Torque Steer message in the torque source.

With my current tune, the Fusion Sport launches as hard as my SHO: like a rocket off the line. No more weird lag or shift lag. But I am missing some tables like the Torque Rate Limit.

How much timing are you able to throw at the 2.7 with extra boost without knock using 87? I'm up to about 13-15 degrees at WOT and it still does not show any knock retard using 87 octane.

I have seen Torque Steer in my 2016 Explorer Sport (Not a "car", but the same transverse AWD layout). https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...rce-Unknown-18

[metroplex]

Do you have access to Forscan? Can you check 730-01-02 under PSCM and see what hex code it is? I checked the Explorer Sport as builts and I'm sure they had torque steer compensation disabled.

[Puggyberra]

Almost all of the torque tables under Trans -> Tq Mgmt in the F-150 are missing from the Fusion Sport. Even some of the settings in the SHO aren't available for the Fusion Sport. I looked at one of your logs (V67 I think) and your v68 tune file, and I think your ETC desired brake torque comes from one of the torque limiter tables under Trans (2A / 3A, etc...) which aren't available in the Fusion Sport. So there has to be another setting that's not available with the FSport. I haven't been able to get my airload much higher than 2.15 because the throttle keeps closing from what I assume is the actual brake torque is exceeding the desired.

I use th trans max tables to control my torque so that should be where my max etc torque request is coming from. You can do effectively the same thing with your max torque tables under engine -> torque management. Have you already defined your air load -> torque tables higher than 2.2 air load (I’m assuming you have), and when you log you have no limits under any source but are getting throttle closure? And ETC torque request won’t go higher than 406 even with no limiters active?

[metroplex]

Are you talking about the load rows under the torque tables? I never touch the torque tables because I did not change the VE of the engine but the max is 2.2 but I am not coming close to 2.2

I have no limits under the sources and I cannot seem to request more than 406 ft-lb. I maxed all of the tables available to me and there are more tables available on the F150. I am almost positive there is a table somewhere limiting it to 406 ft lb or there is a different driver demand table.

I sent a request to Hptuners for missing parameters but this process usually takes 1 to 2 weeks as we go back and forth on files, logs, etc... I just wish they'd unlock all of the parameters like SCT instead of having us go back and forth on unlocking tables.

[Puggyberra]

I haven't been able to get my airload much higher than 2.15 because the throttle keeps closing from what I assume is the actual brake torque is exceeding the desired.

Is this a typo? If not and you're hitting air loads that close to 2.2 then you should raise the label values of the air load to torque tables.

[metroplex]

The PCM will extrapolate the torque values above the airload rows. There shouldn't be a need to mess with the torque tables.

[02reaper]

The PCM will extrapolate the torque values above the airload rows. There shouldn't be a need to mess with the torque tables.

PuggyBerra is right on this. He is very knowledgeable on this platform and him and I have talked and tested many things. While it may go over your defined airload from the TTL and the LTT tables for a brief second, that will be a limiting factor until you extend the range on them. I've been both ways and extending the range is the correct way to do it in my honest opinion.

[metroplex]

So how did you increase the airload range? Just extend it another 1 or 2 rows and extrapolate the torque values using the values from the lower airloads? Do you have any examples of the tweaked tables using the stock VE model? So what happens with the stock 2.2 airload max row if your airload exceeds 2.2? Wouldn't the PCM know how to estimate the torque schedule?

I guess I never had to do that on the SHO because the max airloads were always lower than 1.9

[metroplex]

Also, are you able to increase your desired torque via driver demand? Because I cannot on the Fsport. I changed all 3 driver demand tables but it stays at 406 ft-lb at WOT. I found all of the torque limiter tables and still nothing. The TC1797 on the Fsport must be different from the Fseries even though the engines are the same. Or HPT hasn't unlocked some table for the Fsport.

[metroplex]

Wouldn't you have to tweak the torque and inverse torque tables to achieve this? Puggybear's v67 only adjusted the torque tables to add up to 2.5 airload.

[Puggyberra]

The torque inverse extends past the torque and air load figures you’re reaching, the torque tables do not. Honestly the 406 ft/lbs you’re getting now is significantly lower than anything I’d see on the F-150 at similar air loads. At 2.3 air load I’ll be getting ecu tq of 500 ft/lbs at ~3000 rpms, 2.1 air load will still get me over 430 generally.

I know I posted the spreadsheet I used to calculate the 2.5 row, basically it divided torque into air load, averaged that number for the last 3 rows in the stock table, then multiplied that average times 2.5 to get my new row. The spreadsheet is probably in that google drive link I gave you earlier, I’ll edit this post with the spreadsheet when I’m not on a mobile device later. Adjust the torque tables to the higher air load so you can be 100% sure you’re not hitting the max air load, then you can continue searching for other mystery limiters.

Just as a side thought have you modified fuel windows yet? If not you should be running into injector limits about now as well.

As far as driver demand, I’m currently running 500 ft/lbs max and haven’t touched driver demand or pedal map ratio, they’re still the stock values.

**EDIT** Here's a link to the spreadsheet I used to expand the table. This was not made on a dyno, so these values are essentially just guesses, and the spreadsheet is intended to give an idea of a method, not a definitive solution.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wy...r3LyhqwjqpFBzw

[metroplex]

I already got the injectors squared away. I haven't tried E30 yet as I am going to see how much timing I can squeeze from 87 octane first.

I'm seeing more than 406 ft-lb actual torque, but I'm seeing the DESIRED torque pegged at 406 ft-lb. Some might log ETC Desired, but Desired Brake Torque is usually the same value. I don't think you were logging this in your files. My calculated horsepower is about 422 hp max (I made a formula for this in VCM). I know this is lower than what it should be, because the throttle plate is closing as soon as my actual torque exceeds the paltry 406 ft-lb desired torque. Scheduled torque is well above 500 ft-lb and I believe that is the lookup torque value using the torque tables. On my SHO, my desired brake torque always matched the driver demand values and the throttle plate would only close during shifts or 1st gear launches.

As for inverse, I believe these need to be re-scaled using the same logic (if true) because notice none of the lower cells are near 2.5 airload, if we actually have to mess with the torque tables at all. They are around 2.1-2.2 at higher RPMs on the 500+ ft-lb rows. The reason I feel these tables don't have to be modified is because of the fact you are scaling the 2.5 row based on the sub-2.5 airload rows. The computer can do that just as easily since it is almost a linear relationship (slope). This is like the other tables that depend on ECT/CHT/whatever temps and the last rows are easily exceeded - the ECU doesn't just give up at that point, it continues to do its calculations. But I'll re-scale them just to try it out. I can't seem to get the inverse calculator (built-in tool) to work, I must have missed the tutorial on it.

[Puggyberra]

It's not my first rodeo, so I already got the injectors squared away. I haven't tried E30 yet as I am going to see how much timing I can squeeze from 87 octane.

I'm seeing more than 406 ft-lb actual torque, but I'm seeing the DESIRED torque pegged at 406 ft-lb. Some might log ETC Desired, but Desired Brake Torque is usually the same value. I don't think you were logging this in your files. My calculated horsepower is about 422 hp max (I made a formula for this in VCM). I know this is lower than what it should be, because the throttle plate is closing as soon as my actual torque exceeds the paltry 406 ft-lb desired torque. Scheduled torque is well above 500 ft-lb and I believe that is the lookup torque value using the torque tables. On my SHO, my desired brake torque always matched the driver demand values and the throttle plate would only close during shifts or 1st gear launches.

As for inverse, I believe these need to be re-scaled using the same logic (if true) because notice none of the lower cells are near 2.5 airload, if we actually have to mess with the torque tables at all. They are around 2.1-2.2 at higher RPMs on the 500+ ft-lb rows. The reason I feel these tables don't have to be modified is because of the fact you are scaling the 2.5 row based on the sub-2.5 airload rows. The computer can do that just as easily since it is almost a linear relationship (slope). This is like the other tables that depend on ECT/CHT/whatever temps and the last rows are easily exceeded - the ECU doesn't just give up at that point, it continues to do its calculations. But I'll re-scale them just to try it out. I can't seem to get the inverse calculator (built-in tool) to work, I must have missed the tutorial on it.

I’d have to look at your torque inverse tables again to be sure, in the F150 cal the rows max at 556 (I think, it’s right about there) and I have air loads in some cells at 2.5 or higher. I don’t recall if those tables are similar in the fusion, if they max lower you probably do need to rescale the label values and then the row values.

Honestly one of the reasons I haven’t rescaled the torque inverse tables is because I couldn’t get the calculator to give numbers that made sense to me. I have tried changing values in the inverse tables and did not see definitive results, so I returned them to stock. The fusion strategy could be different, but I wouldn’t expect it to be.

While the ecu could extrapolate values above the table values in this case it doesn’t. In my experience the spark tables are the same in that they don’t make up new values, they just continue with the values in highest row when you exceed it. My understanding is essentially you request X torque (lets 550 @3000 rpm in mp 6), if the table value in mp 6 @ 3000 rpm is 460 the ecu just uses the maximum row value there for your air load (ie: 2.2), then reverses that through the inverse table to see with current conditions and accessory drag how much torque it can actually make at 2.2 air load and gives you the remainder as crank torque. I’m probably slightly off on this, Steve@hptuners can probably explain it more accurately, but this is my working assumption that has seemed correct in testing so far.