Startup Injector Tables - ID1300

[06300CSRT8]

Having a hell of time with getting the car to first fire and stay lit, needs pedal input to fire and to stay running.

Not really sure where to set my Startup Injector Scalar and the Startup Pulsewidth tables. I have tried stock, half of stock, seems no change.

Mod list below, first tune attached.

2014 Chrysler 300 SRT8
Forged 392, hellcat bare block, 6.4L crank, forged rods and pistons, 9.5:1 compression
Edelbrock heads, 73cc, left the way they come
Custom Turbo Cam, 235/240 duration, .590 lift, 116+2
Comp cam phaser limiter
ID1300 injectors, Fore dual hat 450 walbro pumps, Fore rails, 10AN feed, 8AN return, A1000 regulator, 1:1 boost reference, 93 octane
Fore FC3 controller, so running 1 pump during cruise, second pump on a hobb switch
6.1L stock metal intake manifold, stock 6.4L throttle body
3 BAR map sensor
Hellion Twin Turbo kit, PTE 6266s CEA

Startup Tune 1_3 Bar.hpt

[ElecTech]

Set the startup table back to stock, for starters, and increase the scaler by a factor of 3 and see how it acts. The bigger the injector, the higher the scaler number has to be.

[06300CSRT8]

Thanks I will try that now

[06300CSRT8]

Set the startup table back to stock, for starters, and increase the scaler by a factor of 3 and see how it acts. The bigger the injector, the higher the scaler number has to be.

You mean set the scalar to actually 3 or 3x the stock value?

[ElecTech]

You mean set the scalar to actually 3 or 3x the stock value?

3 times stock or, ideally, the number of times larger the new are over the old.

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Did you try the ID "Plug and Play" settings they provide on their website? They are usually a good place to start. Just pay attention to the comments concerning boost referenced
FPR.

[ElecTech]

Did you try the ID "Plug and Play" settings they provide on their website? They are usually a good place to start. Just pay attention to the comments concerning boost referenced
FPR.

Mike is right. Your base injector values don't look correct when compared to the ID data posted on the website. You'll need to get this correct before you can ever hope to get startup right.

EDIT: I see you are running adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

What is your base pressure?

You also should set the Fuel Mass Vacuum Mult. table to 1's

[06300CSRT8]

Mike is right. Your base injector values don't look correct when compared to the ID data posted on the website. You'll need to get this correct before you can ever hope to get startup right.

EDIT: I see you are running adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

What is your base pressure?

You also should set the Fuel Mass Vacuum Mult. table to 1's

Base pressure is 58psi, hooked to a 1:1 regulator. Last attempt I had the vacuum multiplier set to all 1's, made no difference.

The values you are seeing in my tune for the injector PW vs fuel mass is a rescale of the ID data that this tuner is helping me has used on "dozens" of other vehicles running ID1300. The car wants to idle around 0.7 to 0.9 PW, so I can see why the tuner expanded the range to focus on the 0.0 to 1.0. Either way I will try to use the ID data and see where it gets me.

On a side note, the tuner keeps inferring my timing might be off a tooth, I checked it 3 times before buttoning it up, I have gotten the car to run and drive, what would be the effects I would notice if it was actually off a tooth? No codes have been thrown.

[06300CSRT8]

Did you try the ID "Plug and Play" settings they provide on their website? They are usually a good place to start. Just pay attention to the comments concerning boost referenced
FPR.

I will try these next, my problem is they provide no minimum pulsewidth, no startup PW table, and no scalar info. Those three I feel like are the most important in getting a clean fire up, which I have zero data to use.

[06300CSRT8]

So here is the math I am using to get an accurate Startup Inj PW Scalar

Stock 6.4L injectors are 44# injectors

ID1300 are 1335cc at 43.5 bar, which if I roughly convert to a 4 bar system are 1780cc. That converts to 169.5# injectors.

As a ratio of new versus old in # rating, the new injectors are 3.852273 times bigger flow rate.

Stock Startup Inj PW Scalar is 3.675, so multiplying by 3.852273 yields a new factor of 14.1571.

I assume I can leave the startup Inj PW table stock for now?

The Inj PW Min should just be figured out once I see where it wants to idle and only bump it up if I see a pulsewidth where it just truly cannot provide fuel cleanly? Figure I can start with 0.2 ms and go from there.

[ElecTech]

Here is what the ID values look like if used as they list them. The cell resolution is not exactly the same for later model Hemis, but this should be just fine. Especially to test.

Be sure your units are all set to microseconds and milligrams. I have the scaler set at 3x,, but you can try your calculation also. Leave the Startup Table stock, for now. Set Fuel Mass Vacuum Mult. to 1's and see what it does.

[06300CSRT8]

Awesome, that's EXACTLY where I ended up as well, now turning my attention to the airflows. Little quirky here since I have a 6.4L throttle body mated with a 6.1L intake manifold. Not really sure where to start with the startup airflow and where to set the intial throttle body data. I know it is going to need some additional airflow over stock for the larger cam, larger valves, etc., just not sure how much.

[06300CSRT8]

So I am getting SOMEWHERE. Attached is the latest tune and log. Still just wont fire at all without a touch of pedal, but then fires and stays running just fine. Trying to work out the surging that is kicking in towards the end of the log. Any easy fixes you guys see? I am going to just keep on working at the VE tables, I am going to add a little to the transport tables to see if I can get the trims to settle down a little.

[ElecTech]

Try the "Startup Adder" in the "Electronic Throttle" tab for startup. I haven't looked at your log, but my guess is that the surging mostly caused by the VE table. You have a ton of work to do there as the stock tables on a ANN vehicle are not even in the ball park. One look at the 3D graph tells the story.

I wouldn't even waste my time on fine tuning the idle until you get the VE table dealt with. At least in the low load/idle areas.

[06300CSRT8]

Its fairly hard to really have any clue how to tweak the VE with the 1000 rpm surging. One minute I'm sitting with +/-4 trims, then dips 200rpms too much and trims just lock negative at -15 to -18 the entire time its surging, crossing the same cells that a moment earlier were near zero trims.

[lafrad]

That usually means you are right on the edge of a reasonably linear area of the injectors for your idle.

Raise idle a LOT. get some adjustments to the injectors when moving under *light* load so you have some reasonable fuel trims, and then go back to getting the idle worked out....

[lafrad]

If you can't work it out that way, you need to take some time OUT of the injector dead time tables. pull 20% outta there, and try again. It may take a few experiments to get that worked out.

[06300CSRT8]

Thanks - which tables are those?

[lafrad]

The tables that you will be "tuning" are the "Inj PW vs. Fuel Mass" and "Fuel Mass vs Inj PW". make the adjustments in one of them, copy those to the other. the axis of one is the values of the other. They must match, otherwise you will get weird behavior.

The "Dead Time" table is also known as the "Inj PW Offset" table. This is time that the computer "throws away" when it comes to the fuel injector. if you set a value to be "1000 uS" in it, it will add 1ms to any "Desired" PW, no matter the load. It is also subtracted from what gets logged in the hellcat logs (I think its this way for pre-hellcat stuff in the HPT logs) That's the table that you experiment with, in an attempt to get the non-linear fuel flow times into a range that you can work with. you might as well set the injector "min pulsewidth" to something very tiny for now while you work this out. 0.100 or something. its far lower than the injectors are able to be stable, but while you fix the scale, it will let you get get a feel for the changes you have to make to the numbers.

If you are boosted (looks like you are, with a twin turbo kit and all...) and boost referenced top to bottom, you need to set the "Fuel Mass Mult vs Vac" (Vacuum multipler) to something reasonable for your setup. If you are boost referenced with key off and no manifold vacuum, you actually want the scale to start at *that* value. I think that year would be 0.895 across the board. otherwise, set your vacuum reference to 45 psi when the key is on but engine is not running,set that whole table to 1.000, so it has a good idea in its calculations from the start. If you want to forge ahead with your own scale (and not start with ID's numbers), keep it at 1.000 and work the rest out for yourself.

[ElecTech]

I would resist changing around injector data, at this time, since Injector Dynamics is known for their published data being extremely accurate. I would attempt to rectify your other areas before I started manipulating known good data. Your issues are likely elsewhere in the calibration.