Startup Injector Tables - ID1300

[Altered]

I would resist changing around injector data, at this time, since Injector Dynamics is known for their published data being extremely accurate. I would attempt to rectify your other areas before I started manipulating known good data. Your issues are likely elsewhere in the calibration.

This was my thought as well. I'm having similar issues with my setup but I've gotten the car to fire off and idle. Will surge for a bit then die. Like the OP stated the VE side of things is hard to get straight as it jumps all over the place due to the swing. I've tried the PID tuning which I thought helped, the TB Airflow & Small and Large range tables and the Idle Torque Spark Correction values which have all seemed to help. ID1300 car as well. I'm following this thread as it seems I'm in the same spot.

[06300CSRT8]

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. I am trying in whatever way I can to rule out that it could be off timing without pulling the motor apart. if you guys have any advice on how to log this or ways it would be obvious, let me know. I am tempted to just bit the bullet and pull it open to verify, but that's 5-6 hours labor I really don't want to do.

[Jay@HAP]

So here is the math I am using to get an accurate Startup Inj PW Scalar

Stock 6.4L injectors are 44# injectors

ID1300 are 1335cc at 43.5 bar, which if I roughly convert to a 4 bar system are 1780cc. That converts to 169.5# injectors.

As a ratio of new versus old in # rating, the new injectors are 3.852273 times bigger flow rate.

Stock Startup Inj PW Scalar is 3.675, so multiplying by 3.852273 yields a new factor of 14.1571.

I assume I can leave the startup Inj PW table stock for now?

The Inj PW Min should just be figured out once I see where it wants to idle and only bump it up if I see a pulsewidth where it just truly cannot provide fuel cleanly? Figure I can start with 0.2 ms and go from there.

why are you running them at 4 bar when the data is for 3? I'm pretty sure the injectors are going to behave differently.

[Jay@HAP]

Also if you are tuning VE and using a FRP, ID states that they different injector data compared to tuning with InjPW vs. Fuel Mass

[06300CSRT8]

why are you running them at 4 bar when the data is for 3? I'm pretty sure the injectors are going to behave differently.

That is incorrect, ID data clearly states

"Unless otherwise noted, the data shown is for a 4 bar (58 psi) returnless system."

"If the system is converted to a 4 bar MAP referenced fuel pressure regulator, the injector model will be perfectly accurate. In this case, the Returnless Fuel Correction vs MAP table should be filled out with all ones in the multiplier column."

No where does it state to run the injectors at 3 bar. Their headline CC flow rate is the only thing quoted at 3 bar.

[06300CSRT8]

Also if you are tuning VE and using a FRP, ID states that they different injector data compared to tuning with InjPW vs. Fuel Mass

Where is this stated? Seems counter intuitive, the only change (which is noted by ID as well) is the vacuum multiplier table, which I have changed.

[Jay@HAP]

Where is this stated? Seems counter intuitive, the only change (which is noted by ID as well) is the vacuum multiplier table, which I have changed.

4th paragraph on the the "Notes: Please read first"

[Jay@HAP]

So here is the math I am using to get an accurate Startup Inj PW Scalar

Stock 6.4L injectors are 44# injectors

ID1300 are 1335cc at 43.5 bar, which if I roughly convert to a 4 bar system are 1780cc. That converts to 169.5# injectors.

As a ratio of new versus old in # rating, the new injectors are 3.852273 times bigger flow rate.

Stock Startup Inj PW Scalar is 3.675, so multiplying by 3.852273 yields a new factor of 14.1571.

I assume I can leave the startup Inj PW table stock for now?

The Inj PW Min should just be figured out once I see where it wants to idle and only bump it up if I see a pulsewidth where it just truly cannot provide fuel cleanly? Figure I can start with 0.2 ms and go from there.

That is incorrect, ID data clearly states

"Unless otherwise noted, the data shown is for a 4 bar (58 psi) returnless system."

"If the system is converted to a 4 bar MAP referenced fuel pressure regulator, the injector model will be perfectly accurate. In this case, the Returnless Fuel Correction vs MAP table should be filled out with all ones in the multiplier column."

No where does it state to run the injectors at 3 bar. Their headline CC flow rate is the only thing quoted at 3 bar.

That's why I said that. No worries, sorry if I misunderstood.

[06300CSRT8]

4th paragraph on the the "Notes: Please read first"

Sorry, just don't see anything about them having different data to provide if tuning the VE with a return system, the notes have all the changes needed right there, the actual injector data of injpw vs fuel mass isn't different.

Notes:

Unless otherwise noted, the data shown is for a 4 bar (58 psi) returnless system.

The injector model used by Chrysler does not include differential fuel pressure based offset compensation. As a result, it is only truly accurate when the differential pressure across the injector equals 58 psi.

On a returnless system, this will occur when manifold pressure equals barometric pressure. For example, full throttle on a naturally aspirated engine .

The errors will be greatest when manifold vacuum is high, and injector pulsewidths are low.

If the system is converted to a 4 bar MAP referenced fuel pressure regulator, the injector model will be perfectly accurate. In this case, the Returnless Fuel Correction vs MAP table should be filled out with all ones in the multiplier column.

Note that the Returnless Fuel Correction vs MAP table is incorrectly labeled. The actual value is manifold vacuum in kpa.

The Returnless Fuel Correction vs Temp table and the Returnless Fuel Flow Loss table values are system dependent, and should be left stock unless controlled testing proves otherwise, and provides you with more accurate values.

[lafrad]

Well, the statement where it doesn't have differential pressure calcs... seems wrong.
The "Fuel Mass Multiplier vs Vac" table is exactly that. You can change the Axis an set the scaler for whatever curve you want. For most injectors thats means following the ideal pressure flow equations (its not *quite* linear) http://kb.eng-software.com/display/E...+in+a+Pipeline

While Injector Dynamics is *very* "perfectly" accurate with their measurements, Dodge/Daimler/FCA is not. they have some pretty elaborate tables that they massage things a bit to handle the messy running environment of these cars, and the values they use are "close" but are set in a way that all of the fuel pressure multipliers, torque multipliers, airflow multipliers, and Spark tables will respond *well* to running changes over the life of the vehicle. As far as I can tell, they are relatively close in the "linear" part of the injectors, but the non-linear areas are tweaked to be a tradeoff between the Injector PW Offset and PW vs Fuel Mass to allow their fuel trim/adaptive program to run well. Unless you have the time, energy, money to go and remap all of those other tables (airflow, torque, spark, etc) to the "new" measurement standard of the injectors... you just have to go fit in with FCA mappings (and measurements)

I'm attaching an *example* of what you could do if you weren't running a boost referenced system, but still wanted good fuel injector control on the 2006 with boost.... It might make more sense to go find a base hellcat tune and copy that table from there instead.... . Whatever you do, if you *are* boost referenced, set that table all to 1.000. otherwise it will be correcting for a varying pressure drop, when there is no pressure drop.

FuellMassVacuumMult.png
FuellMassVacuumMultTable.png
FuellMassVacuumMultTableBoost.png

[06300CSRT8]

The statement they are making is that Chrysler calibration separates differential pressure from the actual injector modeling, whereas GM in almost ALL their injector modeling is 100% based on differential flow rate in the main injector flow tables. That's all they mean. You take care of differential flow and actual injector flow in one swoop on the GM setups. So that infers the Chrysler injector pw vs fuel flow has to assume no differential pressure at all in the modeling if there is a separate factor table. They go on to explain that if you in fact have a boost/vacuum referenced regulator, the extra factor table is no longer needed and the single injector pw vs fuel flow tables are all that are needed.

[chizzle1]

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. I am trying in whatever way I can to rule out that it could be off timing without pulling the motor apart. if you guys have any advice on how to log this or ways it would be obvious, let me know. I am tempted to just bit the bullet and pull it open to verify, but that's 5-6 hours labor I really don't want to do.

you might be able to log the cam position sensor data and use that to verify, not sure if the 06s had that option or not.
A very rudimentary way to do it (without pulling the heads) would be to pull the #1 plug and find the ICL.
If you degree the cam after installation it will show you if you were off or not due to the ICL not being as advertised on the cam card.
why do you think it's off a tooth, is all the power at one end of the curve?

[06300CSRT8]

Current tuner said the long no fire starts without pedal input and surging after 5 tune revisions makes him believe I have a mechanical issue, i.e. "off a tooth"

[UHemiNow]

I can tell you if I were tuning it I would add about 3 more grams of airflow from .0 to .35 volts. Better to have a little much than not enough. Also as stated I would absolutely put a degree wheel on it before I tore into it again. A lot less work for sure. If you have access to Witech or a Diablo tool and dataviewer you can look at cam crank difference (sometimes listed as "CC DIFF")and that will tell you what the PCM is seeing for where the cam is in relation to the crank. I've never found a way to log it with HPT. If its off a tooth then it'll show a double digit number. IIRC one cam sprocket tooth is roughly 15.65 degrees so it should be obvious.

[chizzle1]

I can tell you if I were tuning it I would add about 3 more grams of airflow from .0 to .35 volts. Better to have a little much than not enough. Also as stated I would absolutely put a degree wheel on it before I tore into it again. A lot less work for sure. If you have access to Witech or a Diablo tool and dataviewer you can look at cam crank difference (sometimes listed as "CC DIFF")and that will tell you what the PCM is seeing for where the cam is in relation to the crank. I've never found a way to log it with HPT. If its off a tooth then it'll show a double digit number. IIRC one cam sprocket tooth is roughly 15.65 degrees so it should be obvious.

I was using HP tuners to log exhaust cam position when tuning the 5.7 VVT, the 426 non-VVT cam reports 125* all the time (no phaser).
You should be getting a cam & crank correlation error if you are off a tooth.
Does your tuner not have a way to check it?
I know it's hindsight now, but always degree the cam when doing a build.
I had to pull the timing cover off mine to and switch from a +4 to a neutral eccentric on the cam sprocket to get the correct ICL according to the cam card.
You can find TDC with a stop rod in the #1 cylinder (through the spark plug hole) then get a dial indicator on the intake pushrod to see if ICL is where it should be. Not the preferred method but better than pulling the heads.

[06300CSRT8]

Thanks guys - HPT actually has a cam degree diff on both intake and exhaust, I logged the intake cam position and it was 139* and never moved, the cam diff was always zero, and I have never gotten any codes at all related to cam position, sensor, etc

[06300CSRT8]

And I have degreed all 4 motors I have done on my personal cars and the 3 others I have done as customer installs and never had an issue, some were off 0.5 to 1 degree but I was always using stock cam timing gear and couldn't adjust anything. This is the first time (and last time!) that I did not throw a degree wheel on it.

[06300CSRT8]

one thing that is irking me, with the cam installed, long block in the engine bay, crank sensor connected, cam sensor not, I cranked the engine for 1 full start cycle (~20 sec) to help prime the motor.

Wondering if this resulted in some quirky cam position learning by the ECU, but not sure if the crank relearn procedure function works in the VCM scanner?

[ElecTech]

Thanks guys - HPT actually has a cam degree diff on both intake and exhaust, I logged the intake cam position and it was 139* and never moved, the cam diff was always zero, and I have never gotten any codes at all related to cam position, sensor, etc

Only Exhaust Cam is active on the single cam engine. If you look at the phaser configuration it shows only Exhaust so only Exhaust tables apply in your case.

[06300CSRT8]

I was told the intake is calculated off the exhaust, so regardless it will log the mirror image of the exhaust side. I will fire it up tonight and log the exhaust side. Hard to believe I could drive it a half hour with the cam off a tooth and not throw a code.