Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 76

Thread: How The Distance Tables Work

  1. #41
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    1,089
    According to the description here: http://www.masterenginetuner.com/201...ti-vct-p1.html, you can use the IVO and EVC reference agnles in the tune to determine overlap.

    So, in their 2015 example, which commanded 0*/0* phasing angles, you would have 29* of overlap.

    For my 2012, those reference angles are IVO=0* EVC=0*. That suggests that with commanded 0*/0* phasing angles, there is no positive or negative overlap.

    Is there a flaw in this reasoning?

  2. #42
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    761
    I just seen this this post. Our fuel economy in the first gen is set up to retard the exhaust cam only.

    With our camshafts at resting position.
    Our IVO is 33.5 degrees AFTER TDC.
    Our EVC is 17.5 degrees BEFORE TDC.
    We are at negative over lap at IVO 0 EVC 0 and that is why we are retarded just the exhaust camshaft in fuel economy.

    With our IVO at max advance which is 50 degrees, that makes our IVO 16.5 degrees BEFORE TDC.
    With our EVC at max retard which is 50 degrees, our EVC IS 32.5 degrees AFTER TDC.

    Correct me if I'm wrong..

    It's not something I've done heavy research on, just google the cam specs.

  3. #43
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    761
    Update to the first post.

    All your Distance Table Mapped Points have a axis that begin with 0. 0, 1, 2, 3 and so on. The axis is your distance. You can not change the distance. The cells are what you change, these are your mapped points. You assign the mapped point's distance in each VCT Mode.

    This is from 2016 Mustang GT.
    In the Fuel Economy Mapped Mapped Points.
    Distance 5 has mapped point 5 assigned to it.
    Distance 8 has mapped point 20 assigned to it. Any where in that that particular distance table you have an 8, know that it will have some kind of percentage in mapped point 8.
    vct-fuel-economy-distsance-table1.jpg

    The decimals show a percentage. the percentage will always be the amount that is leave your current mapped point into your next mapped point. The percentage will never reverse or skip other than what you have assigned next along the distance table, unless thresholds or conditions are met for a different VCT Mode.
    vct-fuel-economy-distsance-table2.jpg
    vct-schedule.JPG

    Blending constantly happens. When your in between RPMs and Loads or transitioning to a different schedule.
    blending.JPG

    vct-snap-to-point2.jpg

  4. #44
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Southeast Texas
    Posts
    17
    This has been great info. Thanks for taking the time to share Thatwhite5.0!
    2012 3.7L v6 Mustang
    1988 5.3 LS RX-7

  5. #45
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    761

    Ghost cam

    Changing the distance tables to create the ghost cam is not very difficult, you just have to make sure to change everything. What happens is most people change their angles. Start their vehicle, the idle starts getting choppy, then the the mapped points blend and the idle smooths.
    Every one knows to spread their cam angles at idle (mapped point 0) to create more overlap. Tables 38150 and 38151.
    First gen coyotes can use an IVO between -50 and -35 and an EVC between 0 and 30. I personally like -45 and 15.
    Second gen coyotes must use an IVO greater than -20. Some keep their ivo at 0 and retard EVC 30 to 50 degrees.
    This is mapped point 0. Open your VCT Fuel Economy Mapped Points table. Like I mentioned, the left side is your distance, the right side are the cells you can change to assign the mapped point you want that distance to be. If your first column's distance 0 has the cell value of 0, leave this untouched. If your first column's distance 0 has a cell value of 10, this must be changed because any cell value in your VCT Fuel Economy Distance Table with a cell value of 0 is going to call for mapped point 10 which has IVO -30, EVC 0. Change the by highlighting the second row and below, copy and paste to the first row so your cell values are
    0
    1
    2
    3
    4
    5
    6
    7
    7
    7

    (Food for thought. Notice how 7 repeats itself in your mapped points table.
    7 - 7
    8 - 7
    9 - 7
    10 - 7 and so on. If you change any cell in your VCT Fuel Eco Distance table 38190 to a distance with a 7, no matter what. It will call for mapped point 7. If you change the value to 10, it will call for mapped point 7 because we have the distance set to 10 - 7. If you wanted to use mapped point 10, then you need to change distance 10's cell value to 10.

    7 - 7
    8 - 7
    9 - 7
    10 - 10

    7 through 9 will all call for mapped point 7, ivo -30 EVC 20, and 10 will call for mapped point 10. This is useless to change but I'm just trying to explain. )

    So you changed your cam angles and mapped point distances. Next open VCT Fuel Eco Distance Table 38190. This is where you will assign the distances from Fuel Economy Mapped Points.

    If you distance did not begin with 0 - 10 and did begin with 0 - 0, disregard the next paragraph.
    Those that had distance 0 calling for mapped point 10, we decreased our distances by 1 when we removed mapped point 10 from the distances. Highlight all cells and subtract 1 from all. You will get a warning message, this message is telling you you can not have a negative number in the distance table. Click yes. The cell values that were 0 will stay 0 and not -1.


    Most of you should raise your idle to around 850 rpm. Your preference. Change the cells your car idles in, normally columns 750 and 1000, loads .15 and .20 to a value of 0. Your distance is calling for mapped point 0s cam angles. Notice the entire top row has zeroes across the top. All of those cells are also requesting your ghost cam angles. If you increase the zeroes 1500 rpm +, it will help with fuel economy and drivability by using mapped point 1, IVO 0, EVC 10.

    Open optimum stability mapped points and emission reduction mapped points and 0 all the cells so all of the distances request mapped point 0.
    With those tables zeroed out. There is no longer a need for mapped point 10 and 11. Open mapped points configuration and disable 10 and 11. Then open snap to point and disable mapped point 10 and 11 if enabled.

    That will have your distance tables set up for your ghost cam angies.

    All that would be left is adjusting idle spark advance and driver demand idle cells.

  6. #46
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Gainesville, VA
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    I just seen this this post. Our fuel economy in the first gen is set up to retard the exhaust cam only.

    With our camshafts at resting position.
    Our IVO is 33.5 degrees AFTER TDC.
    Our EVC is 17.5 degrees BEFORE TDC.
    We are at negative over lap at IVO 0 EVC 0 and that is why we are retarded just the exhaust camshaft in fuel economy.

    With our IVO at max advance which is 50 degrees, that makes our IVO 16.5 degrees BEFORE TDC.
    With our EVC at max retard which is 50 degrees, our EVC IS 32.5 degrees AFTER TDC.

    Correct me if I'm wrong..

    It's not something I've done heavy research on, just google the cam specs.
    This could be useful here. Something i've been tinkering with for a Gen 1 coyote. Let me know if anything looks off.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #47
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    2,101
    Cool idea for a sheet. Not sure if you can make formulas to get a doughnut graph to be capable of representing the cam movements properly.
    You want to work in a 720* scale, just as the 15+ do, use 360* for TDC as the reference of each doughnut graph and set your graph formulas from there to get the correct IVO(343.5-393.5), IVC(554.5-604.5), EVO(131.5-181.5), EVC(342.5-392.5). Stroke angles being:0-180* power, 180-360 exhaust, 360-540 intake, 540-720 compression. This will get rid of the negative values and might make the colored sections move as your cams would, not grow and shrink around TDC and BDC. At .050" durations you should actually see the negative overlap in the parked positions.

  8. #48
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by bbrooks98 View Post
    This could be useful here. Something i've been tinkering with for a Gen 1 coyote. Let me know if anything looks off.
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Cool idea for a sheet. Not sure if you can make formulas to get a doughnut graph to be capable of representing the cam movements properly.
    You want to work in a 720* scale, just as the 15+ do, use 360* for TDC as the reference of each doughnut graph and set your graph formulas from there to get the correct IVO(343.5-393.5), IVC(554.5-604.5), EVO(131.5-181.5), EVC(342.5-392.5). Stroke angles being:0-180* power, 180-360 exhaust, 360-540 intake, 540-720 compression. This will get rid of the negative values and might make the colored sections move as your cams would, not grow and shrink around TDC and BDC. At .050" durations you should actually see the negative overlap in the parked positions.



    Thanks for the worksheet!

    I'm not sure that Excel supports doughnut charts with more than 360*. It probably wouldn't make much visual sense to us, even if it could. I guess we could create a second set of data series, to separate out 0-360* and 360*-720, and plot with two doughnuts.

  9. #49
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Gainesville, VA
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Thanks for the worksheet!

    I'm not sure that Excel supports doughnut charts with more than 360*. It probably wouldn't make much visual sense to us, even if it could. I guess we could create a second set of data series, to separate out 0-360* and 360*-720, and plot with two doughnuts.
    Yeah, I gave up on the Doughnut. It was something I had saw done in another spreadsheet from TOMI cams that I tried to implement. What I'm trying to do with the sheet is understand how far I can go with EVC events without going into EGR while getting the lowest LSA possible. Im curious what makes the most low end wot torque (2200-3600)?
    Last edited by bbrooks98; 10-16-2018 at 06:53 PM.
    2011 Mustang GT TT A6
    1998 Eclipse GSX Awd

  10. #50
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by bbrooks98 View Post
    Yeah, I gave up on the Doughnut. It was something I had saw done in another spreadsheet from TOMI cams that I tried to implement. What I'm trying to do with the sheet is understand how far I can go with EVC events without going into EGR while getting the lowest LSA possible. Im curious what makes the most low end wot torque (2200-3600)?


    I'd love to do some testing on that front. Maybe we should start a new thread for tuning VCT for max torque with forced induction. With my positive displacement blower, I can make good boost pretty early on. I want to optimize that since low end TQ makes a street driven car a lot of fun.

  11. #51
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Gainesville, VA
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    I'd love to do some testing on that front. Maybe we should start a new thread for tuning VCT for max torque with forced induction. With my positive displacement blower, I can make good boost pretty early on. I want to optimize that since low end TQ makes a street driven car a lot of fun.

    Yeah we should. I'd be interesting in hearing others results.
    2011 Mustang GT TT A6
    1998 Eclipse GSX Awd

  12. #52
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    1,089

  13. #53
    Excellent thread. Definitely got a better sense of how to follow the distance tables. I have attached a WOT log and the corresponding tune. Was able to follow the VCT mode "Fuel economy" and actually tell where the cam timing is coming from. Unfortunately I was wondering if anyone would have an idea on why my WOT run would immediately going into "Optimum Power" VCT mode like I would expect and then around 4200 rpm it drops out of that mode and goes into "fuel economy" VCT mode. Car is boosted with a P1X. This did not happen when N/A. Do not understand why load is well above enable load for FE mode. Thanks for taking a look.18degBTanecatdel4thpull.hplID1050X_ P1X_Catdel_Bstane_5.hpt

  14. #54
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    761
    I cant look at the log or tune myself right now.
    Do your cam angles still follow OP cam angles when this happens?
    In the vct tab, set OP Enrichment required to disable.
    Check your OP enable load and op enable throttle.
    Vct fuel economy max load.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    I cant look at the log or tune myself right now.
    Do your cam angles still follow OP cam angles when this happens?
    In the vct tab, set OP Enrichment required to disable.
    Check your OP enable load and op enable throttle.
    Vct fuel economy max load.
    Cam angles follow a blend of MP 20,21,14 as if it was in VCT fuel economy
    OP enrichment is disabled
    Op enable load is roughly .9 across the board. Op throttle is 75@3000 blends to 40 by 6000
    VCT max load is about .5 @ 18inHG across the board. The way I read this is anything over .5 it shouldn’t be in FE mode. Thanks for taking a look

  16. #56
    Advanced Tuner GapRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by RSlo View Post
    Cam angles follow a blend of MP 20,21,14 as if it was in VCT fuel economy
    OP enrichment is disabled
    Op enable load is roughly .9 across the board. Op throttle is 75@3000 blends to 40 by 6000
    VCT max load is about .5 @ 18inHG across the board. The way I read this is anything over .5 it shouldn?t be in FE mode. Thanks for taking a look
    I'm getting the same situation and would like to sneak in if it's not a problem - I changed the stuff 5.0 recommended. Maybe the answer is the same for both of us?
    What I did notice is OP weight drops out when DesLoad goes over 1, OP reduces as EngBrkTq drops below ETCTqReq. As EngBrkTq approaches ETCTqReq OP weight rises.

    ld under 1.jpgld over 1.jpg
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by GapRider; 08-23-2019 at 01:09 PM.
    2019 C7 Stingray M7 - long tube headers, 6.30/6.22 226/238 cam, supporting stuff, DOD and VVT delete.
    Stock everything else

  17. #57
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    761
    Quote Originally Posted by RSlo View Post
    Excellent thread. Definitely got a better sense of how to follow the distance tables. I have attached a WOT log and the corresponding tune. Was able to follow the VCT mode "Fuel economy" and actually tell where the cam timing is coming from. Unfortunately I was wondering if anyone would have an idea on why my WOT run would immediately going into "Optimum Power" VCT mode like I would expect and then around 4200 rpm it drops out of that mode and goes into "fuel economy" VCT mode. Car is boosted with a P1X. This did not happen when N/A. Do not understand why load is well above enable load for FE mode. Thanks for taking a look.18degBTanecatdel4thpull.hplID1050X_ P1X_Catdel_Bstane_5.hpt
    In electronic throttle tab, disable the shuffle switch to prevent strange oscillation.

    In your speed density tab. Optimum power load at WOT. Your leaving OP mode at 4000. In this table you increase op load up to 1.9. Lower it it even return it back to stock.


    Gaprider, I'll check your log out soon to see what's happening.

  18. #58
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    761
    Gaprider, your VCT Emission Reduction and Optimal Stability Mapped Points need to be zeroed out or stock. Both of them will call for mapped point 10. There are tricks to using Optimal Stablilty to an advantage.

    Emission Reduction thresholds are during a cold start. We currently do not have the threshold tables on the S197's, but it could be coming up with our first gen coyote strategy updates.
    You can zero the Emission Reduction MP and not have to worry about it. Or use MP 10 and the angles associated would be advanceing the intake between -30 and 0 degrees.

    Optimal Stability is used mainly during decel by advancing the intake between -30 to 0 degrees. This creates a type of resistance or load against the motor to slow it down. Since it's used on decel, Optimal Stablilty will occur during most manual car's shift, cruising and WOT. Stock Op Stab table also uses MP 10. The order is 0, 10, 0, 0, 0. With small changes to cam angles or adjusting the Distance Tables. A high RPM shift can be perfected, instead of the intake advance 30 degrees and the exhaust taking resting position. Adding in MP 7, order now 0, 10, 7, 0, 0. None of us have the EVC at zero at all in our OP Angles, but it is still needed for full decel. During a high RPM shift, you can have IVO -30, EVC 15 or using a different mapped point in place of 7, you can have IVO -22, EVC 12. I mean really, which ever combinations you can come up with


    So gap rider, return your opstab and emission reduction to mapped points to stock or zero out emission reduction. They're really calling for some strange angles during a shift. What mods do you have done too btw?

    Your Intake Cam Advance Limit - in the 1000 RPM and 1200 RPM, between 70* and 220* F, set those angles to -40*. In the 1500 and 2500 RPM columns between 70 and 250*, set those set those cells to -50.
    Below that table, Intake Cam Retard Phasing Limit
    set 1000+RPM and 70*+ all to 40*.. 16 cells all to 40*


    Here's a little more you can change or anyone can change to get a better running first gen coyote.


    Mapped Point Config, Disable Mapped Point 9 and 11 by changing their 1 value to a 0.

    VCT Op Enable Pedal
    Pedal Position
    1000 89
    2000 89
    3500 80
    4000 60
    5000 40
    6000 30
    7000 30
    rpm

    VCT OP Desired Load
    Desired Load
    1000 0.85
    1500 0.80
    2000 0.80
    4000 0.7
    4500 0.4
    6000 0.4
    rpm

    Go to Airflow > General > Managed Tip-in Switch - 0

    Airflow > Electronic Throttle
    Pedal Pos WOT Start - 400
    Below that table, Tip In Mgmt, Disable it.

    Torque Management > General > Oscillation Switch - Disable

    Set Torque Limit Timer to 1000

  19. #59
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    In your speed density tab. Optimum power load at WOT. Your leaving OP mode at 4000. In this table you increase op load up to 1.9. Lower it it even return it back to stock.
    .


    What is your understanding of this table?

    I have heard a couple conflicting explanations. I have an issue where at WOT, ~5000rpm, despite VCT still being in OP mode, MPOP starts sharing weight with MP7

  20. #60
    Advanced Tuner GapRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    Gaprider, your VCT Emission Reduction and Optimal Stability Mapped Points need to be zeroed out or stock. Both of them will call for mapped point 10. There are tricks to using Optimal Stablilty to an advantage.

    Emission Reduction thresholds are during a cold start. We currently do not have the threshold tables on the S197's, but it could be coming up with our first gen coyote strategy updates.
    You can zero the Emission Reduction MP and not have to worry about it. Or use MP 10 and the angles associated would be advanceing the intake between -30 and 0 degrees.

    Optimal Stability is used mainly during decel by advancing the intake between -30 to 0 degrees. This creates a type of resistance or load against the motor to slow it down. Since it's used on decel, Optimal Stablilty will occur during most manual car's shift, cruising and WOT. Stock Op Stab table also uses MP 10. The order is 0, 10, 0, 0, 0. With small changes to cam angles or adjusting the Distance Tables. A high RPM shift can be perfected, instead of the intake advance 30 degrees and the exhaust taking resting position. Adding in MP 7, order now 0, 10, 7, 0, 0. None of us have the EVC at zero at all in our OP Angles, but it is still needed for full decel. During a high RPM shift, you can have IVO -30, EVC 15 or using a different mapped point in place of 7, you can have IVO -22, EVC 12. I mean really, which ever combinations you can come up with


    So gap rider, return your opstab and emission reduction to mapped points to stock or zero out emission reduction. They're really calling for some strange angles during a shift. What mods do you have done too btw?

    Your Intake Cam Advance Limit - in the 1000 RPM and 1200 RPM, between 70* and 220* F, set those angles to -40*. In the 1500 and 2500 RPM columns between 70 and 250*, set those set those cells to -50.
    Below that table, Intake Cam Retard Phasing Limit
    set 1000+RPM and 70*+ all to 40*.. 16 cells all to 40*


    Here's a little more you can change or anyone can change to get a better running first gen coyote.


    Mapped Point Config, Disable Mapped Point 9 and 11 by changing their 1 value to a 0.

    VCT Op Enable Pedal
    Pedal Position
    1000 89
    2000 89
    3500 80
    4000 60
    5000 40
    6000 30
    7000 30
    rpm

    VCT OP Desired Load
    Desired Load
    1000 0.85
    1500 0.80
    2000 0.80
    4000 0.7
    4500 0.4
    6000 0.4
    rpm

    Go to Airflow > General > Managed Tip-in Switch - 0

    Airflow > Electronic Throttle
    Pedal Pos WOT Start - 400
    Below that table, Tip In Mgmt, Disable it.

    Torque Management > General > Oscillation Switch - Disable

    Set Torque Limit Timer to 1000
    thanks so much for the knowledgeable help 5.0, let me make those changes and post back up.

    oh, mods are long tube headers, off road X, 3" exhaust.
    2019 C7 Stingray M7 - long tube headers, 6.30/6.22 226/238 cam, supporting stuff, DOD and VVT delete.
    Stock everything else