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Thread: How The Distance Tables Work

  1. #21
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    I don't know why I haven't charted the MPs before! It gives a much more meaningful way to see blending and transitions. In this case, I see a weird blend as I roll smoothly into WOT:


    In this roll on, after MP9 has all the weighing, there is a resurgence of MP3 at 70% pedal, then back to MP at 85%, then finally to OP. I'm curious why this shuffle occurred:

    MPs-Roll-on.png

  2. #22
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    What about best drivability? It seems like a lot of the Roush files set the Best drivability Min load to 5? Are these just not using best drivability and going from fuel economy directly into OP? I've been playing with this trying to get more intake advance while at light throttle to increase torque down low. So far its a lot better with the EVC low 8-10 and the IVO full advance -45 etc, but i was wondering could i set it up for the best of both since i'm on a roush file by using the Best drivability tables. Example low Throttle angles .18-.30 load IVO 0 /EVC 20, then say .40 to .70 load IVO -45 /EVC 15 setting it up for OP.
    Last edited by bbrooks98; 05-27-2018 at 06:11 PM.

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    Here is something i threw together to try and get the Fuel economy modes at low loads and use the Best drivability distance table to get quicker torque response once above .60 load by going to map point 7 -40 IVO then into OP at .75 load. This look like it would work as expected? I zeroed map points 8,9 and 11 since i didn't see the point. I noticed in a Boss file in the upper Rpm ranges they set the distance to 1.5? I assume that's to force the Map points to track OP? Also I was trying to get a lot of overlap on decel while in Optimal stability for more of a flame show. Would i want snap to point to go to 10?

    Distance tables.jpg Cam Angles.jpg Desired loads.jpg
    Last edited by bbrooks98; 05-27-2018 at 06:09 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrooks98 View Post
    Here is something i threw together to try and get the Fuel economy modes at low loads and use the Best drivability distance table to get quicker torque response once above .60 load by going to map point 7 -40 IVO then into OP at .75 load. This look like it would work as expected? I zeroed map points 8,9 and 11 since i didn't see the point. I noticed in a Boss file in the upper Rpm ranges they set the distance to 1.5? I assume that's to force the Map points to track OP? Also I was trying to get a lot of overlap on decel while in Optimal stability for more of a flame show. Would i want snap to point to go to 10?

    Distance tables.jpg Cam Angles.jpg Desired loads.jpg
    Setting best drivability load to a 5 will disable it by setting the min to a load it will never reach. I have mine set to 5.

    Yours would work and if it stays in op. You have mapped point 7 across the majority of the highest load which means up until 4500 rpm your cams will set to -40/20. So at 5000 rpm you have 1.5. Every time you shift gears wot, your ivo is retarding back to 0 and your evc will be at 15 degrees, then your ivo will advance back to the correct timing.
    Same rule goes if your op ivo is -30, you go wot, your car will go advance past -30 to -40, then retard back to the correct cam positions.


    Optimal stability will advance ivo only 30 degrees to help with emission control, pumping loss and maybe some brake torque.

  5. #25
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    Setting best drivability load to a 5 will disable it by setting the min to a load it will never reach. I have mine set to 5.

    Yours would work and if it stays in op. You have mapped point 7 across the majority of the highest load which means up until 4500 rpm your cams will set to -40/20. So at 5000 rpm you have 1.5. Every time you shift gears wot, your ivo is retarding back to 0 and your evc will be at 15 degrees, then your ivo will advance back to the correct timing.
    Same rule goes if your op ivo is -30, you go wot, your car will go advance past -30 to -40, then retard back to the correct cam positions.


    Optimal stability will advance ivo only 30 degrees to help with emission control, pumping loss and maybe some brake torque.
    Did some testing today. Worked perfectly! 6% throttle it's IVO 0 and EVC 20, give it about 11% throttle and it switches to best drivability and starts going for full advance.

    I did go ahead and put the 5k up distance to 6 to more closely match the OP targets though. Thanks for that tip.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    I don't know why I haven't charted the MPs before! It gives a much more meaningful way to see blending and transitions. In this case, I see a weird blend as I roll smoothly into WOT:


    In this roll on, after MP9 has all the weighing, there is a resurgence of MP3 at 70% pedal, then back to MP at 85%, then finally to OP. I'm curious why this shuffle occurred:

    MPs-Roll-on.png
    Because you're distance tables still need to be adjusted more. The cams are following what you have set in the tables, your exhaust is retarding to 30 degrees which will delay the OP percent or making them blend. Pretty much, with your set up, you need to have mapped point 9 in WOT RPMs. Your pull was a 3500 pull, I'd have 3500+ with MP 9, possibly even 3000+. Then you can have less than 2500 and less your economy area.

    MPs-Roll-on-1.png

  7. #27
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    On the topic of distance tables, does anyone know how what parameter controls when the VCT mode enters/exits Emissions Reduction?

    Also under VCT->Optimal Stability-Enable Max Load, the table is set for .13 Desired Load vs 6,500. This means Optimal Stability is only enabled @ 6,500 with a .13 load? Or does it mean if I were at 6,500 RPM and .13 Load (probably impossible) Optimal Stability is enabled... Or wait I think it might be if Desired load is 'under' .13 @ 6500 RPMs Optimal Stability is used?

    Finally Desired load, is this AIR LOAD or Desired Torque?) I don't see a channel with "Desired Load"

    This part confuses me! I'm trying to understand how the VCT modes are selected. Some are obvious while others are mysterious

    :enableoptimalstability.PNG
    Last edited by blackbolt22; 05-31-2018 at 07:12 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    On the topic of distance tables, does anyone know how what parameter controls when the VCT mode enters/exits Emissions Reduction?

    Also under VCT->Optimal Stability-Enable Max Load, the table is set for .13 Desired Load vs 6,500. This means Optimal Stability is only enabled @ 6,500 with a .13 load? Or does it mean if I were at 6,500 RPM and .13 Load (probably impossible) Optimal Stability is enabled... Or wait I think it might be if Desired load is 'under' .13 @ 6500 RPMs Optimal Stability is used?

    Finally Desired load, is this AIR LOAD or Desired Torque?) I don't see a channel with "Desired Load"

    This part confuses me! I'm trying to understand how the VCT modes are selected. Some are obvious while others are mysterious

    :enableoptimalstability.PNG
    Emission reduction is used during cold starts. Though there is not a table to adjust this based on ECT.

    Optimal Stability Enable Max load, you'll have to rescale the axis to change the RPMs. Do this by clicking on the left side of the window or just click on the axis title on the left side It's enable max, optimal stability will be enabled at loads less than 13%.

    Fuel Economy Max - Anything below this value will be in fuel economy mode, using your fuel economy distance tables.

    Best Drivability Min - Anything above this value will be in best drivability mode, using best drivability distance tables, UNTIL Optimum Power thresholds are met. To disable, enter 5.0 in all cells.

    Desired Load - Air load or absolute load, I believe the only difference is air load will show .13 and absolute load will show 13%. I only use absolute load. It does not use anything with torque.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post

    Optimal Stability Enable Max load, you'll have to rescale the axis to change the RPMs. Do this by clicking on the left side of the window or just click on the axis title on the left side It's enable max, optimal stability will be enabled at loads less than 13%.
    In my last datalog, air load was always higher than .15. For instance at idle air load was .184 (absolute load 18.4%), and VCT mode was using Optimal Stability. So why was the vehicle using Optimal Stability if the load was .15+ when the threshold is .13? How does the RPMs play into this since it's all 6,500 for the whole table? It would make more sense if the load was lower than .13 at idle...

    Shouldn't it be in Fuel Economy mode since the values in the distance table are .58-.69 @ 1000 rpm?

    Also thanks for the other explanations, crystal clear!
    Last edited by blackbolt22; 05-31-2018 at 01:44 PM.

  10. #30
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    I'm not sure on the axis being 6500, I think it may be a way to apply it to the whole table. 6500 all the way, still comes in at all rpms as if we started at 1000 and added 1000 each row. Maybe the load desired and that was below 13%.


    There are a few throttle tables, OP enable I believe is one. They have the same axis and same values. I know OP enable works through the rpm range with 6500 rpm and 89 in the cells. It works all rpm as long as you've hit the threshold.

    I noticed optimal stability would come in during shifts and decelerating. So I took advantage of it and scaled op stability ivo to equal my WOT 8000 rpm shift so when I'd shift and the rpms would fall down to 6300, my cams would already be at OP angles.

    I honestly have not messed with 6500, I always rescale or make it unachievable.

  11. #31
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    Because you're distance tables still need to be adjusted more. The cams are following what you have set in the tables, your exhaust is retarding to 30 degrees which will delay the OP percent or making them blend. Pretty much, with your set up, you need to have mapped point 9 in WOT RPMs. Your pull was a 3500 pull, I'd have 3500+ with MP 9, possibly even 3000+. Then you can have less than 2500 and less your economy area.

    MPs-Roll-on-1.png

    Back home after some travels!

    Okay, looking at this odd pulse of MP3 when I'm rolling on the throttle, I still don't understand where it is coming from. According to my log, at the peak of MP3 weighting, the VCT sched mode is OP. Yet OP MP has only 0.08% weighting.

    MP3-bump1.png

    At 4000 RPM and load over 100%, I should be solidly in OP. My enable load is 0.8. The 'Best Drivability Distance Table' does point to "3" at that condition. Is it calling directly for the MP, by number, since it doesn't have its own distance track? Even if that is the case, Best Drivability should be disabled:

    MP3-bump2.png

    What am I missing here?
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  12. #32
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    A related question: What the hell is "Fuel Economy Drive" VCT Schedule Mode?

    On multiple quirks I have noticed, it is switching from "Best Fuel Economy" (well understood) to "Fuel Economy Drive" (can't find it referenced anywhere else).

  13. #33
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    It would be switching from the best fuel economy to the best drivability distance table. I think they labeled it fuel economy drive to let you know both use the fuel economy array.

    I would say your pedal position wasn't high enough to get you into OP, your load was higher than the fuel economy Max. This is where drivability mode is suppose to fill, so it did. It could have went to disabled and had your cams go back to base positions of 0.
    5.0 load is quite high the ECU may not even recognize it as a valid entry. Highest things in the SD are 3.0 load. Try some where in the 2.0 range to move it up out of the way. If you do get it up out of the way, you are still going to need to close that gap between fuel economy and OP on your tip-in. You may find using the drivability tables to fill this in easier. It definitely can give you more resolution using two distance tables.

  14. #34
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    It would be switching from the best fuel economy to the best drivability distance table. I think they labeled it fuel economy drive to let you know both use the fuel economy array.

    I would say your pedal position wasn't high enough to get you into OP, your load was higher than the fuel economy Max. This is where drivability mode is suppose to fill, so it did. It could have went to disabled and had your cams go back to base positions of 0.
    5.0 load is quite high the ECU may not even recognize it as a valid entry. Highest things in the SD are 3.0 load. Try some where in the 2.0 range to move it up out of the way. If you do get it up out of the way, you are still going to need to close that gap between fuel economy and OP on your tip-in. You may find using the drivability tables to fill this in easier. It definitely can give you more resolution using two distance tables.


    Thanks for the reply murfie.

    Right at the peak of of the MP3 hump, is when I hit 70% pedal and switch to OP. This seems to trigger rolling out of MP3, back through MP9 and finally into OP. You might be on to something with the Best Drivability being mislabeled and for some reason not disabled. That table of 5's for minimum load was that way in this base strategy (not to say it works as intended to disable). If it is still functioning, and using the Fuel Econ array, that would explain it.

    I'll test today with this table modification. It should still switch to Fuel Econ Drive, but avoid disturbing the MP9 blend.

    MP3-bump3.png

  15. #35
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Does anyone have a good resource for education on general VCT tuning concepts?

    • Cam positions for best fuel economy
    • Cam positions for best response
    • Cam positions for best torque in NA and FI setups
    • How cam positions should vary with RPM and load
    • Etc


    I went back through my resources from combustion engine processes courses I took in university, but haven't really found what I'm looking for.

    If we are careful, we can get data on fuel economy changes. But for torque output, without a dyno, you are shooting in the dark. With a dyno, but without a good plan of where to focus efforts, you could burn up a lot of time.

    With Coyote cam profiles and base timing, how much angular separation do you need before you start getting overlap and subsequent blow-through on boost?

  16. #36
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Okay, that seems to have been successful. Not only does the logged VCT transition during roll-on look smoother, but the car feels better too.

    Take aways:

    • Setting minimum load for 'Best Drivability' to all 5's does NOT disable its use
    • "Best Drivability" VCT Mode seems to be reported as "Fuel Economy Drive" by Scanner



    MP-roll-on.png
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  17. #37
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    The only way we could get good data is if everyone tests for the best angles on the mods their vehicle has or vehicle they can get a hold of. I'm not sure how the results will vary from mod to mod. I'll get on on my laptop and post the angles I had the best mpg with. I know the ivo was at 0 until 55% load. 1000 to 2500 rpm. The evc was doing a lot of movement.

    Cam positions for best response. Meaning WOT response?

    Even with best known angles, something else in the tune or car could prevent those angles from being the best for another car with the same mods.
    From 1000 to 5000 rpm my ivo is at -50 with my evc 20-15. Not very fuel economical.

    There are ways in the datalog to find what works best for N/A. For boost, you can't really tell if theres too much blow through. A dyno is useful ofcoursr to graph and get numbers

    I know our cams are sitting at negative overlap when at 0/0. I have more info on my computer for that. Theres just a lot that come into effect when finding the best angles, octane, timing, location.




    In the pic you posted it looks like your blending through fuel economy. Your angles aren't very spread, due to your mods. I've seen fuel economy drive on my datalogs and I'm not sure what table is commanding it. I do know on my best drivability, I have set to mapped point 8, -50 and 20 for 90% of the table and I have never seen those angles when in fuel economy drive.in your pic, you're at 80% load and should be 100% mapped point 5 to be running best drivability table. Im not sure what load you have OP enable set to Yours looks like it's blending between 2500/3000 rpm in fuel economy table + transitioning to op

  18. #38
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    The only way we could get good data is if everyone tests for the best angles on the mods their vehicle has or vehicle they can get a hold of. I'm not sure how the results will vary from mod to mod. I'll get on on my laptop and post the angles I had the best mpg with. I know the ivo was at 0 until 55% load. 1000 to 2500 rpm. The evc was doing a lot of movement.

    I tried an MPG test the other day. My Fuel Economy array is 0,1,2,3,4,9. Basically, I just made tunes which locked in MP0,MP1,MP3 using the fuel econ distance table. With each tune, I drove the same stretch of road at 45 mph / 2500 rpm, and again at 60 mph / 2000 rpm; resetting and recording the reported avg. MPG for each.

    I saw very little change in mileage:

    MP0: 19.2 / 25.7
    MP1: 19.1 / 26.0
    MP3: 18.7 / 26.1
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  19. #39
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    Cam positions for best response. Meaning WOT response?

    I meant responsiveness to throttle changes. Some cam positions seem to make throttle response "muddy".



    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    Even with best known angles, something else in the tune or car could prevent those angles from being the best for another car with the same mods.

    Can you explain one potential example of this? I could see major mods having an impact on this, but for similar builds, I think that VCT trends should repeat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    From 1000 to 5000 rpm my ivo is at -50 with my evc 20-15. Not very fuel economical.

    Why do you run it this way?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    For boost, you can't really tell if theres too much blow through.

    What do you think about this for developing boosted WOT valve timing:

    1. Use the cam specs to keep IVO / EVC angle pairs so that you have NVO
    2. Do WOT runs with different angle pairs, maybe starting at IVO=0 and advancing from there.
    3. Log the boost curve for each run. Lowest boost at each RPM point is your best IVO angle, since you are maximizing cylinder filling.
    4. From there you would keep IVO angles and explore the threshold of retarding EVC. Any further reduction in boost would be from blow through. Or you could just use the cam spec math to ride the threshold of introducing overlap.





    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    In the pic you posted it looks like your blending through fuel economy. Your angles aren't very spread, due to your mods. I've seen fuel economy drive on my datalogs and I'm not sure what table is commanding it. I do know on my best drivability, I have set to mapped point 8, -50 and 20 for 90% of the table and I have never seen those angles when in fuel economy drive.in your pic, you're at 80% load and should be 100% mapped point 5 to be running best drivability table. Im not sure what load you have OP enable set to Yours looks like it's blending between 2500/3000 rpm in fuel economy table + transitioning to op

    OP enable.png

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Throwing things into excel and getting a visual of the interpolation is very useful in many parts of the tune. Especially when things like rate of change or smoothness come into play. These condensed tables help the ECU's processor, but leave a lot of holes. Getting the values and resolution where you need it is very important to achieve your goals.

    Your values in the spreadsheet on the exhaust side between 8-9 and 9-10 are wrong.
    What are the correct values?
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