When Spark Source = Torque Control which table is it using? Is there a way to adjust this or a workaround?
2014 GT Auto...
Thanks
When Spark Source = Torque Control which table is it using? Is there a way to adjust this or a workaround?
2014 GT Auto...
Thanks
Last edited by blackbolt22; 06-09-2018 at 10:24 PM.
Are you seeing torque control on decelaration?
Its using your torque ratio tables. Yours has 3 ratio tables, fuel, spark and spark only. If spark source isn't in torque control, then the throttle source will be.
Torque tables, etc predicted, etc area and driver demand need to be dialed in better. The best way is with a dyno but I know Murphie has a good instructional post some where in the forums. Using air load and a few formulas and filters, he shows a way to dial in torque. If its it's getting in your way, causing knock due to spark dropping. You can mess with tour ratio tables or torque tables. I'm sure there are other ways
Its ignoring using MBT values, using the torque model and torque ratio to determine a best spark value to achieve a desired RPM using PID controller. Most of the time you should see it when the engine is returning to idle or at idle where spark doesn't need to be at MBT and the engine isn't making the most power, but has torque in reserve for when things like the alternator load goes up or the AC kicks in. You can see it when you hit limits(excluding spark limits) or IPC's as those will cause the torque ratio to limit torque commonly by reducing spark. Only way for it to know anything other than the MBT or BDL values is by desired RPM/ load, the torque ratio, and torque model.
Dam had to look over my shoulder to see if you were watching me write that post!
Last edited by murfie; 06-10-2018 at 05:23 AM.
Thanks for the replies guys!! I was literally just looking over some posts yesterday about torque / fuel ratios and Fords system for this. I believe I understand how it works but I do not see any timing values per RPM/Load table for this source?
Where is it pulling the -value- in degrees to us timing to cut torque? The same goes for Spark source = Idle feedback. Where is it pulling the actual timing values?
Since my tune has a lumpy idle.. It uses Idle Modes: RPM Control, and then Torque Control after a throttle bump.
When I start the vehicle it's in Idle mode = RPM Control, Spark Source = Idle Feedback... The timing advance at 0.x while borderline is around 25-30 -- where is the timing adjusted?
After I bump the throttle , Idle mode = Dashpot, Spark Source = Torque Control... The timing advance is much higher, between 25-45 bouncing all over and borderline is around 45 -- where is the timing adjusted?
I'm missing some piece of this puzzle and haven't been able to find it. Do I need to try and tune out torque control while in dashpot? I want to use dashpot because that's where I have control over cam timing @ idle....
It's a ratio.
Set to 1 to disabled
1 = 100%
.75 = 75%
.5 and so on.
40 degree with .75 should see in the area of 30 degree .
What mapped points are you using for the cammed angles?
If you have column with 650 rpm, 35 degrees and the next column with 1000 rpm and 45 degrees. Plus your loads for each column. You have interpolating data a long with your torque ratios and idle spark, cold Start spark. I'd go for tuning dashpot if you want a good idle.
Post a log and file. I think I have dashpot info I did on a CJ, LTH first gen, I'll have to find it.
Oh and btw. Its harder on an auto with torque decel enabled. I messed with it and just went ahead and passed doing it on an auto.
This makes sense what you are saying with the math.Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0
The next question is, which mode is determining the spart cut? Torque source or Idle source? My torque source=Target N with a .450 ratio. My idle source=dashpot with a .650 ratio (which is more inline with the final timing)- or is this a blended value combining target n & dashpot?
I guess I could just tinker and see which one has the effect I want
The ratio works on the torque values. The model is torque values at MBT, Stoich lambda, and STP.
So say the model indicates 100 ftlbs of torque a .75 value would mean this value can be reduced down to 25ftlb of torque. .25 would be a reduction to 75 ftlbs. You could say if 40* MBT gives you the 100Ftlbs of torque then 10* would give you 25ftlb, but I think the algorithm is a bit more complicated than that and not so linear as F=Ma. It all has to do with cylinder pressure to get force applied to the surface area of the piston, leverage on the crank angle, Mass of the rotating assembly, ETC. You would have to have sin(crank angle) and factor in the moment of inertia, which makes the torque delta from cylinder pressure changes on a curve. So from 40* to 30* may not have as much of and effect on torque reduction as 30* to 25*. It also has to take into account if a fuel reduction is being used. Also if ETC is being limited.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...atio-Questions
Stevens post #6 is a good one.
Did this get figured out?
My 14 GT500 has same issue. I see what y'all talking about, but where is it adjusted?
I have helped it a lot by reducing the torque in the torque tables, but when driving, it reduces torque on the way up in rpm, doesn't want to idle good, if you're just wanting to let it idle in gear with your foot off of gas, pulls the motor way down so easily. If I raise torque back up, it will idle better, but tries to pull a lot of timing when spark is under torque control, and throttle is under idle control. As soon as spark goes under idle control, it's like the motor frees up, since it's not pulling so much timing. I think my solution is the torque ratio as ya'll have said, with my torque values raised back up, but can't see where that ratio is adjusted. Does a GT500 have that adjustment?
Idle reserve torque would be what you want to play with.
I don't see an Idle reserve torque in my tune, but I do have 33458 Spark Only Torque Ratio as Stephen references in his post #6 that you referenced above.
I'll try 33458 idle to see what it does, it's set on 0 now, so if I understand correctly, the ecu can cut up to 100% torque via spark. I think I'll set my torque tables back up higher, then allow the ecu to take less torque away, via spark, see what happens, maybe I'll start at .5 & go from there.
Ok, tried adjusting 33458, did nothing that I can tell, even if set to one.
Not sure where it's getting info to reduce timing so much. Reducing torque values in torque table does more to help than anything, but it will still pull crazy amounts of timing for seemingly no reason.
Sorry didnt see GT500, was thinking 15+.
You are not going to adjust the torque ratio with those tables or at all, The value just controls how much the ECU can do with it.
The 11-14 and Gt500's have idle spark set point, and a few conditions that modify these set points. This along with Desired idle airflow and the conditions that modify those are used in a closed loop to maintain the desired idle RPM. Dash pot is used to slow the throttle down around areas like the throttle closing too quickly or opening too fast to achieve the desired RPM and limit overshoot.
Torque control is for RPM decel control to return RPMs back down to Idle and reduce demanded torque. At idle engine brake torque and demanded/ETC torque should be at 0 Ft Lbs. If 0 or close to 0 can not be meet because of too much/ too little airflow or airflow that is not smooth then it will not exit torque control and perpetually be trying to achieve desired RPM. Some times it can take it a bit to settle and other times it settle very quick. Having your MAF dialed in with a good clean signal helps a lot. TB model and driver demand have to be good as well. ) driver demand should fall at 0 pedal and in the range of desired Idle RPM. you can't have a large minimum throttle angle or the effective area and throttle angles repeated out causing a lack of data for the lower throttle angles maintaining the airflow for idle.
To pull torque up it will advance spark to pull torque down it will retard spark. There is always disabling torque based decel and tune around the issues that come from that.
Last edited by murfie; 06-14-2018 at 02:56 AM.
Yes, 2014 GT500.
What I see when free revving the motor, letting it come back to idle, the spark source is torque, and timing goes super low, then it'll decide to go to idle feedback, timing goes up, and motor gets idling really nice. The torque control will pull timing way down, when there's no need in it.
I will check my torque at idle, see what it is. I have been running a stock dd table, maybe it needs adjusting in lower areas since I have cams.
I wonder what makes the torque control turn loose, and let idle control take over spark control? There's gotta be some kinda logic to make this happen somewhere in the ecu. maybe after torque control has control of idle, it allows idle control to take over?
Ok, playing with this more, I have ETC torque request at some low numbers, rolling around 4-5, idling, did this by lowering the dd table, didn't seem to effect the engine brake torque.
Engine brake torque is around 25-35 idling, it will go negative numbers if I neutral rev it, as it tries to idle. Not sure how one would get ebt to zero.
Good news is that spark isn't going so negative, when idle is controlled by torque. Still idling low until spark gets controlled by idle.
Throttle desired angle is going to zero, I have min throttle at 1 degree, so it will idle, then rising as it transitions to idle controlled spark.
Not quite sure what it needs at this point.
Engine brake torque should be near your ETC demand torque at idle. If its higher you might have a very small dead spot in your pedal off idle. You would probably need to raise or lower your torque/ inverse values depending on what load you are seeing at idle and what your torque model is like.
Spark, engine brake torque, Load, and scheduled/indicated torque will all follow each other up and down.
So Engine->Idle->Airflow->Idle Airflow... & Engine->Spark->Advance->Idle Spark Advance... These?
If I'm understanding correctly you're saying Torque Control @ Idle tries to maintain Desired RPM by changing Spark timing (likely first and then fuel if that doesn't work?) . IF a change was made to 'idle airflow' that increased power @ idle in real time, Torque Control would reduce timing to compensate, correct?
Also if a change was made to Idle Spark Advance which would bring power up, and idle up for example, Torque Control would simply eliminate that change to bring it back down?
IF Desired RPM is the target of the Torque Control, how exactly does the Driver Demand factor into this at idle? Torque control wants to control the torque # and not use the DD engine torque or is torque control only in effect @ idle when the idle isn't correct and then it falls to using driver demand #s?
Oh and one more Q please: Does the MBT timing tables affect torque control in this mode.. You mentioned this as one of the items but not sure if you meant only for 2015+
Last edited by blackbolt22; 06-15-2018 at 07:15 AM.
For 11-14, Torque control for spark is only to be for decel and quicker return to idle. Once idle is found it should use the idle feedback.
Driver demand is used in every thing torque related as far as if the engine should make more or less torque than it currently is. It's the pedal side of the torque model. When your pedal is at zero or at the same value as engine brake torque it's saying maintain RPM don't make any more or less torque. If driver demand is at 0 and engine is making 20, then it's basically saying the engines making too much torque, and it trys to reduce it. if you move the pedal and now it's saying make 15, you are still saying make less torque.
The torque load model is based on MBT. ANY spark value less than that will make less torque.
If your model says MBT is 30* around idle RPM and load, and your idle feedback is to target 15*, the ecu knows it can reduce or increase engine torque from spark control. If you reduce the MBT value to 20*, the ECU still knows it can control torque up or down, but it thinks it's much closer to the value of torque in the model as spark is closer to MBT.
I got mine to idle pretty good last nite, 0 ETC torque, had to zero out lower row of dd table. Got ebt torque to be really close to zero, its rolling, plus to minus values, not solid like the etc torque is. Runs good, pulls off nice, decels good, had to play with dashpot some, but seems pretty good now.
Still have some throttle errors, but ill get them ironed out next time I mess with it.
I have a Whipple elliptical tb that came with my new blower, no info for it, I can buy info from Whipple for $250, may try the ford oval one info one & tune from there. Does anyone have info for a Whipple elliptical they would share?
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