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Thread: 2016 Camaro SS manual torque management issues

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haans249 View Post
    Looks like the fix is:


    This was posted by TriPinTaz on another thread and I tested this on a buddy's car. No longer bogs on launch with a manual. I upped the 1st gear and Neutral to a torque value above the max torque for the motor (anything above 500). No more bogging on launch.
    Do you have any screen shots or logs to show what it was doing vs the after? Curious to see what your BOG looks like in a log?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by essmotorsports View Post
    Do you have any screen shots or logs to show what it was doing vs the after? Curious to see what your BOG looks like in a log?
    Attached is an example of the bogging on launch. When dumping the clutch at 4800 rpms, the motor would bog down to around 2300 rpms pretty consistently. I did not capture a log with the change as it no longer bogged, but started smoking the stock clutch instead of bogging after the change, which I suspected was going to happen. We got a Monster Triple ordered up now and will test further.

    Bog on Launch.hpl

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haans249 View Post
    Attached is an example of the bogging on launch. When dumping the clutch at 4800 rpms, the motor would bog down to around 2300 rpms pretty consistently. I did not capture a log with the change as it no longer bogged, but started smoking the stock clutch instead of bogging after the change, which I suspected was going to happen. We got a Monster Triple ordered up now and will test further.

    Bog on Launch.hpl
    Thanks for sharing! It just helps to see it in a log. Spring is approaching quick and I'm hoping to get out soon and get my car even more dialed in.

  4. #24
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    Weather finally stopped snowing and I was able to take my car out and data log. I can confirm this also fixed my issue of throttle not going to 100 percent when I stabbed it at 1000rpm. It now opens like it should in all gears.

  5. #25
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    What does your table look like now?

  6. #26
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    I'll have to take a screenshot but I just put say 600 ft lbs in all of first gear and neutral. Some number more than my engine is making. Didn't seem to affect anything else.

  7. #27
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    So I can tell you that table alone will not fix a higher hp car. I have got two cars to launch or try to anyway hard but one killed the monster clutch zl1 and z06 it blew up the diff. On the logs both looked to 90 percent tps 20 plus degrees of timing and both coming out logging over 10 psi and 800 lbs of torque. It takes a lot of tables for found working together to get all of it. As I have seen some come close to wot and yet have negative timing or very little. So limits can happen multiple ways on these m6 and m7 cars. The z06 just got a zr1 diff and axels so hoping to get a wheels up 60 foot next time out. The zl1 is an 1100whp car and not many other options for a clutch other then 4K plus carbon setup as the stage 3 monster didn?t hold it and went up in smoke with in the 60 foot. So he might try another track day and come out at 3000/3500 vrs 4500 and see if clutch can take it.

  8. #28
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    I have this problem on every Corvette I tune as well. Heck, they even do it stock! It's not as noticeable with a stock cam, but there is a bunch of initial spark retard when you first hit the gas to come off the line from a dead stop and then it ramps the timing in until it reaches the commanded spark in your main high octane table. The fix I have found is a combination of things mentioned in this thread. First, raise the minimum spark tables. There's no reason your car should ever need to go down to -30 degrees of timing while under load (many of the low RPM cells in a vette and in camaros allow for that much spark retard). Second, you need to recalibrate your virtual torque tables. As @Higgs Boson mentioned, a big aftermarket cam will be in more vacuum at lower RPMs than a stock cam, so you're going to need to pull the virtual torque tables down in the lower RPM ranges until it stops pulling timing on you.

    If you look at the log screenshot that @TriPinTaZ posted, you can see in his channels list that "Torque Management Advance" is pulling 16 degrees of timing on him. It reads weird because at first glance, you'd think it's adding timing, but it's actually the opposite. The function of torque management is essentially to reduce torque whenever you're making way more torque than expected. By lowering the expected values in the virtual torque tables enough, you can get torque management to stop fighting you in areas where it shouldn't. On my Z06 (which has a large cam, and an upper and lower pulley to spin the blower harder), I reduced my expected torque values from idle to 2000rpm quite a bit across the entire RPM range. I basically got my idle dialed in by pulling expected torque values until my car idled well and coasted down to idle pretty smoothly without messing with minimum spark values. I then pulled about 20-25% expected torque out around 1800 RPM and interpolated down to idle and up to around 2400 RPM. The car drives perfect now. Nice snappy throttle response. No off-the-line hesitation at all anymore. It'll still do that weird timing dip right when you hit the gas, so you'll have to play with the minimum spark values after you get your torque tables dialed in, but you won't see an extended period of Torque Management Advance pulling timing on you like in @TriPinTaZ's log (not trying to pick on you bro. That log is just a great visual representation of what we're talking about).

    I just recently tuned another cammed C7 with a similar setup to mine, and the owner says he thinks his car actually drives better than stock now. No hesitation and no cam surge at all. He was actually shocked when he drove it for the first time. It just takes a lot of playing around with virtual torque. The main tip/trick is that the stock values are going to be too high. You shouldn't need to raise them anywhere in the virtual torque tables. The lower RPM regions all just need to be scaled down until it stops fighting you/pulling timing.

    Sorry for the super long reply. It took me forever to figure this out on my own car. I hope it helps.

  9. #29
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    That post of mine was back in 2018. I've learned quite a lot on the Gen V platform since then. In a nutshell, that issue I was seeing was indeed the Virtual Torque Tables being incorrect for the mods and the tune changes. In the early C7s (2014-2015 LT1), if you disable or limit the cam movement at part throttle and low RPM, it helps to adjust the Virtual Torque in this area as well to make for smoother transitions with Torque Management Advance.
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  10. #30
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    I didn't notice that the thread went that far back haha. I just saw it pop up in the list again and didn't pay attention to the dates.

  11. #31
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    I wanted to update this thread with what I have been seeing and found out. After making the change to the Misc Commanded Torque table, this fixed the issue I was having opening the throttle fully at 1k to 2k rpm. I had made multiple changes over the winter and was going to roll some back to stock if they didn't need to be change.
    My issue came back, I then went through trials to see what combination was holding the car back. From what I found the one value that I needed to change or it wouldn't open the throttle was ECM 25017 Maximum Map. Idk why but I had changed this value to 105 kpa and magic, open throttle like it should. Also just changing this value it does not adjust any torque table or coefficents, it really almost seems as this is a limit. It is also a combination I need to have Peak Torque high enough that it is also not limiting the car with spark/throttle. I wanted to share what I found through trial and error. Hopefully someone can chime in if they have seen an issue with the ECM 25017 value as well.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tapout Tuning View Post
    Has anyone had any luck resolving this issue with timing being pulled in first gear after launch?
    Yes. Were you able to?

  13. #33
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    This issue was solved already in this post. Read further up......
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