Hey guys, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around why I might be getting pulled out of OP during some WOT pulls and not others. I appear to be at required Pedal % and Load to enter OP, I enter OP fairly easily and then it shuffles around to random MPs. Hoping someone could check over this log and file to tell me if there is anything I'm missing that would point to as to why this is happening.
Still seeing this happens sometimes, doesn't happen every WOT pull, but it does happen still. Still looking for some guidance on this.
I'm still new but in reviewing your tune, I see that Max Phasing Limit EOT for intake caps at -44 advance but the angles for OP call for -45. Not sure if this is your problem but the PCM will do weird things in a scenarios like this.
One time I forgot to enable a mapped point but called for it at idle in a distance table..... the PCM split up the weights and the HDFX ended up still running the cam values requested at the disabled MP! In other words it created it's own workaround for my blunder!!!
The other cause for MPs picking up weight occurs when OP angles are near MPs assigned as snap to points or lines....
Okay I will adjust the Max Phasing Limit and see if that helps at all, thank you for the input! I don't yet understand how the Snap to Point and Snap to Line works but I sorta get what you're saying.Originally Posted by blackbolt22
Search the forums and I promise you will find the info.
That said think of a snap to POINT as a point on a 2D graph with X being intake and Y being exhaust. The labels here are trivial... it's a 2d graph
Since the PCM will follow one of the Distance tables or OP table, and transition between those values (interpolate) while you're driving... it needs a way to choose the correct mapped point to know what timing to use and how much air is expected to flow, and how much torque per RPM/Load, etc, etc, at those requested cam angles! So if the intake and exhaust cam angles requested end up to be -33 IVO and -22 EVC, you can bet MP7 is going to have a lot of weight since MP7 is a snap to point, and it's value is -30 / 20 which is close to the requested cam angles! The snap to line gives the MPs a line to follow between 2 mapped points if the requested angles remain close enough as well and can also help if the requested angles are BETWEEN 2 MPs.. then it can simply snap to that line and follow along if needed.
As far as OP mode, it should theoretically stay in OP and not really use the distance tables & associated MPs but I've seen it happen if angles and snap to points are close enough or there is a stray snap to line which is CLOSE enough to the OP lines etc. I'll still leave the experts to look over the tune in case something is amiss.
Okay that makes pretty good sense to me. I can agree that it seems to shuffle around in the MPs, the cam angles are pretty close to what OP is commanding.
My questions are:
How can you stop it from doing this?
Do you have to play with the various MP cam angles in order for them to not be close enough to shuffle around like this?
Is this potentially unavoidable considering OP cam angles vary through the entire RPM range?
This effects ignition timing as well so ideally I would want to stay in OP 100% of the run that way I am getting commanded timing. Thanks for taking the time to explain snap to point and snap to line a little bit!
Yep I'm fairly certain you can plot all of your points on a graph and then make adjustments so they are more separated with less chance of 'blending'. The stock tune does a great job of keeping them apart except where it would be advantageous for a transition.
I actually began to do something just like this in excel, mapping out OP IVT and EVT in a simple X & Y Graph, and then overlaying the individual mapped points IVT and EVT, to help get a visual reference on where the OP timings might cross through those mapped points. And when you do that it clearly does move through several mapped points IVTs and EVTs but I lack the understanding of how it Snaps to Point and Snaps to Line to really tell how it might blend with those Mapped points or to optimize it in a way that it won't try to blend through them.
Hi I'm curious about something in your tune.. Where did you get the IVO #s from for OP.. A dyno tune or some sort of simulator? The precision is crazy in those #s.
Oh and what kind of mods do you have? I have a 14GT too
EDIT: I mapped the points of the tune and my mapping shows MP7 and 8 can get weight at the same RPMs I see in your log. What's odd to me is MP8 isn't enabled as a snap to point -_- . It's like the PCM says oh well i'm using it anyways lol......
How about disabling MP8 altogether. I don't see that your tune uses it anywhere, do you? This is what I would try and then do a few passes, log it.. see if there's any improvement.
I still welcome the experts to chime in here as I'm still a noob compared to them but it doesn't hurt to theorize and try things that aren't risky.
Last edited by blackbolt22; 07-28-2018 at 09:44 AM.
Sometimes the mapped points will weigh to nearest mapped point. The only thresholds we have are Load % and Throttle %. Your distance tables need to go through 0 - 7 before weighing to OP. You might get into OP, then the weight will transfer to the mapped point with the closest cam angles. I'd expect some blending in first and second gear. As your cam angles start to narrow, you get close to 6, 7, 8 and. 7 blends because it has an IVO of -30. Your IVO advanced to -46 and started blending with mapped point 8, IVO -50 but pulled rout and started weighing in mapped point 7, IVO =30. Some of the mapped points are stronger than OP. You can raise spark in those mapped points that are blending . Change your OP cam angles or disable the mapped points. They don't need to be in snap to point to receive weight, they just need to be enabled. Snap to point works with travel of the fuel economy distance table. I take my driving into consideration, I have 11, 10, 9, 8, and 5 disabled. It definitely stops the blending.
First and second gear, had some blending
opblend.JPG
2nd gear didn't blend because it had time to reach OP.
no-op-blend.JPG
I can definitely consider disabling a few mapped points, I generally stay in 0-5 when I'm driving around normally. Would keeping 0-5 and OP be too few mapped points? Or would doing 0-7 and OP be a better spread? Doing 0-7 would mean less reworking in the VCT tables I would think.
Also, on your point about raising spark in the mapped points that are blending, does this mean that spark comes into play with blending as well? And when raising these spark tables with the purpose of preventing blending, are you raising the spark significantly say 5-10* or just by a few degrees?
Absolutely spark and everything else associated with that MP that's being blended in comes in to play.... that's the point of the mapped point system.
You could work the last 2 rows of MP7 and MP8 to scale like OP in the rpm ranges/loads that are blending. I consider that a workaround myself though.. I'd rather try and get it to stay in OP mode all of the time but with your angles being so close to the other MPs the workaround might be the best option. Tinker away!
Last edited by blackbolt22; 07-28-2018 at 02:12 PM.
Yeah definitely going to have to play around with it some once I get back in town. I definitely want to maintain 100% OP through WOT, so I don't want to have MP7 and 8 have OP WOT timing copied over. But rather if raising these spark values say 4* for example keeps you from blending to them during WOT, would you consider that a workaround? I'm definitely going to give that a shot once I get home. I'm also going to try disabling some mapped points that I don't really get into during my normal driving as well to see if that helps, as I stated above I don't really see anything outside of 0-5 when driving around town.
It won't keep you from blending to them... but it will stop the effect of losing timing if you did. There's more than timing you have to worry about when blending is going during OP. Look through the tune specifically under the Airflow->Speed Density, and Torque Model tabs... there's alot going on that references the Mapped Points! That's why i'd personally rather prevent it from leaving OP than by reworking all of the blended MPs...
As far as slimming down the MPs... I've seen folks run as low as 3 MPs: MP0 for light throttle/idle, MP(X) for part throttle, and OP for full throttle. An S197 Roush tune uses MP0-3, 9&10, AND OP. lol
It's all there for diversity and efficiency!
Yeah for sure, these cars definitely have a lot of math behind them! Trying to soak what information I can from the forums to help understand how to properly calibrate them. I agree with you that I want to prevent it from leaving OP, in the proper way. That's why I'm here trying to gather information on how I can do that, so I definitely appreciate all the input!It won't keep you from blending to them... but it will stop the effect of losing timing if you did. There's more than timing you have to worry about when blending is going during OP. Look through the tune specifically under the Airflow->Speed Density, and Torque Model tabs... there's alot going on that references the Mapped Points! That's why i'd personally rather prevent it from leaving OP than by reworking all of the blended MPs...
As far as slimming down the MPs... I've seen folks run as low as 3 MPs: MP0 for light throttle/idle, MP(X) for part throttle, and OP for full throttle. An S197 Roush tune uses MP0-3, 9&10, AND OP. lol
It's all there for diversity and efficiency!
Keep things realistically plausible(IPC), in your driver demand table especially and the ECU will work toward your model goals and not away from it. 100-150FT increase in engine torque would take extensive modification from the OEM NA engine to be real.
You could move the IPC monitors out of your way, but you are not doing yourself any favors by having made up data in the ECU and not data based loosely on reality. Fords torque source algorithms are base on observations of reality. Try to maintain a stock like relationship of your engine brake torque, ETC torque, and Scheduled torque.
I haven't even touched the driver demand table since I got the car, but now that you bring up the DD table, it is realistically WAY off. I know who tuned the car before me, but I don't know why they would multiply the WOT region by a factor of almost 1.4 . I am going to compare a stock file and redo the bottom 3 rows of the table to be more realistic. I was thinking maybe a factor of 1.1 or 1.15?
Also would you advise redoing the ETC Torque Management tables as well?
So I believe I got my issue sorted out. What I ended up doing was only using MPs 1-7 and OP, I redid my driver demand table to be more realistic, and I plotted my Mapped Points on an X/Y Graph in Excel, and noticed that there were mapped points very close or even on my OP line. Some of those got disabled in the first place, but a very close one (MP7) ,
I moved slightly farther away from my OP line so that the HDFX wouldn't be tempted to put weight in it during WOT. So far so good, I am staying in OP 100% through my pulls.
The reason wot driver demand is because the these cars take everything into consideration. You realize a wot not set high enough will result in the throttle angle decreasing, etc area decreasing, loss of air, fuel power. That being said. The DA, weather conditions in different parts of the country or world will effect your engine brake torque.
I have terrible DA where I live. 7 to 8000 with an actual altitude of 2800 ft. On a good night, naturally aspirated. I've had engine brake torque hit around 410. 50.5 # per min.
I took a trip, furthest by car has been, 340 miles away with 400 ft altitude. My engine brake torque was 450 and I gained 7 # per min.
Changing your op angles shapes your power curve. Are you losing power or gaining power? Raise spark and you might have had more power 4 flashes ago with a different set of angles.
If I do a single geared pull starting at 2500 rpm in any gear above first, my car stays in OP. If I do a first through fourth, my car may go into mapped point 8 which are my exact angles, and it may go into op. But nine times out of ten for some reason, when my ivo approached -30 I weigh into seven quick, then back into op for each rom. OP to 7 to op.. I've learned to work with it. Because I request those angles before I'm wot. My ivo is already at -50 before WOT so I will not disable 8.
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