Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: 2017 zl1 idle timing & throttle response

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Dandridge, TN
    Posts
    560

    2017 zl1 idle timing & throttle response

    Any one know the trick for adjusting idle timing? I have managed to make it go from a stock 15 to 18 degrees to now a very lazy idling 5 degrees with just a 95mm zr1 throttle body change. I did change the value did all the math came up what I believe to be close enough on the max area like 6284. Guessing its something with the larger opening trying to keep the idle at the stock 585 rpm so more air and reducing timing I just don't know what to do other then raise the idle some. There is no timing tables for idle like the gen 4 stuff so guess you have to change up other tables to get the idle timing your looking for. I have a lazy throttle on free rev now and idles like it has a small cam with the low timing and smells dirty though its at 1.00 at idle. Guess its the timing making it stink now. Guessing guys tuning for cams had to figure this out so thanks in advance for any help.

    Also if any tricks to help throttle response out of gear. Im sure just fixing this will help but also notice that when you rev its only commanding 40 percent throttle and no matter what I seem to try that is all it gives. It will rev its just lazy. My 07 Tahoe is snappy as hell for a fi vehicle with some timing and fuel adjustments. Its impressive for a stock cam 5.3 almost embarrassing to rev a gen v they are so lazy.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Texas Hill Country
    Posts
    3,299
    you can change idle timing, command more torque or tell it that it is making less.

    GM screwed us on the throttle. there are no tables available to adjust this in HPT or they moved part of the throttle control to a different module than the ECM. you can make changes to the DD table also but honestly, its not that effective and would also be a band-aid.

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Dandridge, TN
    Posts
    560
    I am starting to think that some of this is possibly in the bcm under launch control features possibly as its the only thing that makes sense at this point. No matter what you do to a manual car it will not allow you to launch it hard and gives a throttle/rpm cut at 4k. I have seen discussions that hp is possibly trying to make the bcm tunable but haven't heard from them directly on this. It would make sense why we don't have the full throttle control why cars wont launch well manual or stick. From what I have found anyway it will always keep the throttle down in the 40 percent area to about 32-35 mph then feeds it all in. I was hoping it was a torque limit table based off speed and did find one in efilive for the 2.0t cars and had them add it to beta. It has helped me on the 2017 and up camaro/ats 2.0t in getting the boost to stay higher as it was higher at lower speeds and pulled torque as the car went faster and was cutting boost bad at 100 mph no matter how I was tuning the dc tables. I was hoping this would also show up for the lt1 and lt4 stuff but not seeing it on the v8 cars only on the 2017 and up e80 ecm. I just wonder if something like this exists for us and why we don't have full throttle control. I added a picture of the table so can see it and let me know what you might think on it. It helps a lot just this one table allows me to set my commanded boost higher so it doesn't limit boost or chop the throttle.
    Do you think its possible we are just missing tables in the ecm? Or its in the other modules as some think? I stumbled on the 2.0t table when a tuner in Russia was showing me some stuff and asking me what they might do. I got the table i.d. and asked for them to add it. BUT I have no clue on how to go about finding what might be missing as Im sure there are a lot of stuff we don't have access to.
    Thanks for the tip I will try it and see if I can get my timing back as its killing my idle now. Higgs I also want to apologize I guess I purposely tried to spool you up on the SOI fueling to see if you were holding back any tricks and it was a little childish on my part. I do realize a lot of people do this for a living so if you tell everyone how to do it then no one needs to pay for tunes. I have myself got very good with the turbo stuff and spent a ton of time getting it figured out. While I will help a lot on them I don't walk you through what to do unless they pay me for a tune as I will teach you the car as I am tuning it so that way you don't need me when want to make changes down the road. But to hear others big companies that charge for tunes are trying to figure out what I am doing is bothersome. I don't want others to profit off my hard work so I see the point in not sharing everything or holding someone's hand but rather point in the right direction. With out your knowledge some stuff would go unanswered so appreciate it when you do help more then most will admit. Now fighting fueling on my own gen v its aggravating and more so that not much is out there to choose from so have to pay a premium to try to make more power.
    So much potential when comes to this platform and feel like I have one hand tied behind my back the whole way and sure you have been feeling this a lot longer. Looks like additional port injection is the only way that will truly support the power potential and be safe and make the most hp on the setup. The issue now is choosing the right controller to piggy back the e92. I did hear Dave might be working on a project for this but did mention its very detailed and sounds to be extremely time consuming. So for now I guess the dual 7 gph meth nozzles in the blower lid will have to suffice. I hate to think how unbalanced the fuel delivery is but not much more you can do on it other then 1000 buck on direct port which that 1000 is going to port injection and not wasted on a blower lid. Maybe hp will crack the bcm or give us some more tables to access. I just have no clue on how to find what else exists on this ecm to ask for it to be added.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Calibrating
    Posts
    3,371
    You can 100% make the throttle go WOT from a dig or any speed... just to let you know

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Dandridge, TN
    Posts
    560
    The only thing I haven’t played with is tcm so unless it’s the trans not letting me I have tried about everything else I can think of. Got a hint there Ben?? If I am holding it at say 2200 rpm and nail it I get quick response. If I let it down shift on it’s own it’s lazy. If I do from any type of dig it is lazy. Like traction control is affecting it almost. It’s spinning but modulating the throttle until 32-36 mph then snaps wot and holds it. I have yet to see an lt4 bolt on car 60 foot worth a crap and think it’s this happening. Even the manual cars do it to about the same mph. The lt1 cars do not do it from what I have seen. Only the zl1/z06 logs I have seen even a few tuned by big shops which. I know means nothing but would think these places selling packages would have it figured out by now.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  6. #6
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    South FL
    Posts
    1,359
    I think Ben was referencing the Max Throttle Area table. Yours was already set to 100% at all RPMs when I looked at your tune.
    [email protected]
    Owner/GM Calibrator
    Gen V Specialist - C7 Corvette, Gen6 Camaro & CTS-V3

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Miami,Fl.
    Posts
    290
    Did you find a solution to the low idle timing? I'm having the same exact issue after installing an LT1 throttle body. Idling at 2 degrees smells rich even though wideband says 1.00
    2023 Ford Maverick 2.0T AWD

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner Ghostnotes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    471
    Idle reserve has worked for me by adding or taking away a few ft/lbs and changing minimum timing. Regardless of what has been said (torque=airflow) I was setting the torque and timing but still had to adjust my airflow to get my idle to stop surging and going rich. Idle torque reserve had a bearing on it as well because when I made changes to it alone, my fuel trims changed as well.

    I was trying to hit 750 rpm on a large cam and it would not go past 600, cold or warm initially. now it idles perfect at 750 with +\-1.5% trims.
    Last edited by Ghostnotes; 08-16-2018 at 01:41 PM.
    I always tune VVE....
    2016 C7 M7 Z51
    Callies ultra billet crank
    Callies ultra billet rods
    Diamond pistons
    Jhonson high speed lifters
    Ported and polished headwork
    Custom cam
    YSi-V7

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner Ghostnotes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    471
    Lt1z350

    What kind of numbers can you get out of those 2.0t's?

    I just bought my wife a CT6 and am wondering if there is anything to be had.
    I always tune VVE....
    2016 C7 M7 Z51
    Callies ultra billet crank
    Callies ultra billet rods
    Diamond pistons
    Jhonson high speed lifters
    Ported and polished headwork
    Custom cam
    YSi-V7

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Miami,Fl.
    Posts
    290
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostnotes View Post
    Idle reserve has worked for me by adding or taking away a few ft/lbs and changing minimum timing. Regardless of what has been said (torque=airflow) I was setting the torque and timing but still had to adjust my airflow to get my idle to stop surging and going rich. Idle torque reserve had a bearing on it as well because when I made changes to it alone, my fuel trims changed as well.

    I was trying to hit 750 rpm on a large cam and it would not go past 600, cold or warm initially. now it idles perfect at 750 with +\-1.5% trims.
    Tried raising the Idle reserve and it got worse so I zeroed out the table and went from idling at 2 degrees to 10 degrees. When I turn on my AC though it goes back down to 2 degrees...
    2023 Ford Maverick 2.0T AWD

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Dandridge, TN
    Posts
    560
    Funny how you say the idle keeps going rich as mine keeps going lean. I had added like 40 percent to the maf a redicilous amount but that was for a 5 inch maf tube just to get it to even idle clean as was 1.20 to 1.30 range then put the 95mm Tb on it and got even worse. It bobbles around from 1.00-1.11 when driving or sitting at idle with the big maf change. Then the timing going low made it stink. Adding tq to my table got timing up to 10 or so but stock was 16-18 so going to keep playing with it this weekend and I did add to my virtual torque down low but yet to test the tune.
    Ghost I am seeing on average 300-350 whp depending on mods. Normally a down pipe and tune is good for 320whp on 93. A good tune on 93 is good for 60whp even with no other mods but the torque under the curve is a lot. Makes the car feel like a big block as torque is extremely flat from just off idle to 6000 rpm. An amazing little motor and had they put a little larger turbo stock could have got an easy 400hp rating on it. Stock tune is terrible and stays at stoich under high load low rpm in boost and scarry to see on a stock tune. It’s got better with the later models but early 13-14 were miserable and why so many blew up. Much better with the 2016 and up e80 and factory wideband I wish GM used this controller on all v8s so had the factory wideband keeping fueling perfect but that makes too much sense. Lol
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner Ghostnotes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    471
    Quote Originally Posted by lt1z350 View Post
    Funny how you say the idle keeps going rich as mine keeps going lean. I had added like 40 percent to the maf a redicilous amount but that was for a 5 inch maf tube just to get it to even idle clean as was 1.20 to 1.30 range then put the 95mm Tb on it and got even worse. It bobbles around from 1.00-1.11 when driving or sitting at idle with the big maf change. Then the timing going low made it stink. Adding tq to my table got timing up to 10 or so but stock was 16-18 so going to keep playing with it this weekend and I did add to my virtual torque down low but yet to test the tune.
    Ghost I am seeing on average 300-350 whp depending on mods. Normally a down pipe and tune is good for 320whp on 93. A good tune on 93 is good for 60whp even with no other mods but the torque under the curve is a lot. Makes the car feel like a big block as torque is extremely flat from just off idle to 6000 rpm. An amazing little motor and had they put a little larger turbo stock could have got an easy 400hp rating on it. Stock tune is terrible and stays at stoich under high load low rpm in boost and scarry to see on a stock tune. It’s got better with the later models but early 13-14 were miserable and why so many blew up. Much better with the 2016 and up e80 and factory wideband I wish GM used this controller on all v8s so had the factory wideband keeping fueling perfect but that makes too much sense. Lol

    What worked for me was setting your idle, Main timing, minimum spark timing within your idle area, idle torque reserve which is pretty sensitive(5-15 ft/lbs worked for me) and idle hysteresis at ~85 ft/lbs(in that order). Then I just kind of eyeballed my MAF/VVE and made a few small adjustments and watched my trims. I then went to work on the cranking hot and cold. That was a little bit tougher for me at least.

    Here is a short vid of my first pass.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nye3noma_Rc
    Last edited by Ghostnotes; 08-29-2018 at 08:45 AM.
    I always tune VVE....
    2016 C7 M7 Z51
    Callies ultra billet crank
    Callies ultra billet rods
    Diamond pistons
    Jhonson high speed lifters
    Ported and polished headwork
    Custom cam
    YSi-V7

  13. #13
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Charles View Post
    You can 100% make the throttle go WOT from a dig or any speed... just to let you know
    Been fighting this for a while. Can you guide me on what table is limiting this crap? 2018 CTSV. 0-18 mph (3275 rpm) 50% Throttle 19-33 MPH (5830 rpm) 61% throttle and after that 100%.