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Thread: SPAL Brushless Fan Control issue

  1. #21
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    I think I may have a dead fan output on my ECM, I've tried the 2014 & 2016 Vette settings and get no fan operation whatsoever ever. For some reason I don't understand the '14 and '16 use different numbers in the State vs Desired% table, even though they are the same ECM and the same fan motor and the same wiring.

    I have continuity between the end of the signal wire and ECM (E40) C1 pin 36 - stock relay removed and jumper between trigger and output pins. The fan motor has good B+ and GND on the fan side of the connector so my homemade harness is OK. The control wire on the fan side has ~12v (it has an internal pullup resistor, the ECM provides a ground to pull it low). No matter what the engine temperature, or AC pressure, or manual controls in the scanner with either engine running or engine off, duty cycle measured at the control wire stays stuck at 50%, but the frequency jumps around from 3kHz to 10kHz, not the 100Hz it should be according to the tune. I'm all out of ideas except for faulty ECU... or that the E40 hardware just isn't capable of controlling this goofy fan.
    Last edited by blindsquirrel; 05-26-2019 at 07:08 AM.

  2. #22
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    IT VORKS! FINALLY.

    But get this. Go look at a 2016 Vette tune from the 'pository. It uses PWM EV at 100Hz, right? Well that same 2016 brushless fan with an E40 WILL NOT DO JACK SHIT with those settings. But with the older C6 settings of PWM Electric & 128Hz it works like it should, fan speed goes up when coolant temp & AC pressure go up, goes down when they go down.

  3. #23
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Here's the edited wiring diagram in case I'm not the only person left on the planet interested in these kinds of things.

    (BTW, in full sunlight, ambient 93*/50% rh, idling, doors open and A/C set to 60*, just 30% fan holds the coolant temp at 174*.)



    2006 E40 - SPAL brushless.png

  4. #24
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Another BTW: With these settings the speed signal waveform in the oscilloscope now looks like a proper signal. Rock-solid 128.0Hz and duty cycle correlates with what's shown in the scanner. Using PWM EV, at ANY frequency, even the stock tune running the stock EV clutch fan at 2Hz, the signal just looks like stray secondary ignition noise garbage. No definite frequency reading, numbers jump all around, ragged waveform with big random spikes.

  5. #25
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    Great work, thanks for posting your findings. Talked with Spal at SEMA about this and they said it was not possible so I've been using the C6 cooling fan module with the Spal brush fans.

    Looking forward to using this on my next build. I'll scope a friend's Vette to see what the PWM signal looks like. Interesting it works at 128Hz not the 100Hz in the C7 tune.

    Thanks again for sharing this.

    Jon

  6. #26
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    I did try PWM Electric @ 100Hz early on and got no fan operation, though I didn't put the scope on it with those settings. I ASSumed that this fan would only respond to a 100Hz signal no matter what it was called in the tune, also ASSumed that the only difference between PWM EV and PWM Electric was the relationship between duty cycle and fan desired % (thought they were the same, just inverted duty cycle). I still have no clue how it's working with these settings, never mind why it doesn't work with the 'correct' ones.

    I have a USB oscilloscope that runs on the laptop so I can take screenshots of the waveforms comparing the dramatic difference between PWM EV and PWM Electric outputs on this E40. I'd LOVE to compare with a waveform from the C7's E92 using PWM EV, if you can do that it'd be fantastic!

    The issues I ran into could be either a limitation of the E40 hardware, or something in the OS its running - I don't think there's any way to figure out which it is, though since I finally made it work it really doesn't matter... except that unknowns like this just get stuck in my head and bug the shit out of me.

    In theory, at '600W' the max amp draw at minimum voltage (engine off, fan at max speed, 11.0V) should be only 54.5 amps. 42.8A at 14V. I am temporarily running it from a 60A J-case fuse, because I have a spare spot in my fuse box that goes to a convenient external stud meant to power the trailer accessory wire. The fan controller's 'soft-start' means there are no big spikes at turn-on that would require heavier fusing with an on-off controller.

    ----------

    Just to sum up, this fan is ACDelco #15-81914, street price between $190-$220.
    Uncrimped roll-your-own connector if you want to use oversize 8AWG wires like I did: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233178180273 (if that listing is expired, search for 'SPL30628') (~$27)
    If you want a pre-wired pigtail (looks like only 10AWG but should be OK for only ~50A) look for Motorcraft WPT1361 (~$25).

  7. #27
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Here's proof the setting PWM EV doesn't output a valid signal. I didn't even disconnect the scope between these shots.

    First, the working settings of PWM Electric/128Hz. 15% fan speed shown in the scanner, measured 75% duty cycle, measured 0.128KHz (128Hz).
    pwm electric 128hz 15 percent.png

    Next, flash with the tune changed to PWM EV/100Hz. Nothing. Jack squat. Signal line pulled low all the time.
    pwm ev 100hz nada.png

    Changed the scope to shorter time/lower voltage and this is the signal I got before that looks like secondary ignition bleedover.
    pwm ev 100hz noise.png

    Flash back to the file with PWM Electric/128Hz. 44% fan, 56% duty cycle, 0.128KHz.
    pwm electric 128hz 44 percent.png

  8. #28
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Minor clarification:
    I was reading the duty cycle backwards, the scope measures it different than how I was thinking. There's a pullup resistor or whatever inside the fan motor, the ECM provides a ground to pull it low. The scope assumes it's the other way around: normally low, pulled high when active. That's why the duty cycle looks funny, it's actually not inverse of the Desired %, it's the same. '75% duty cycle' displayed is really 25% duty cycle at 25% desired.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Minor clarification:
    I was reading the duty cycle backwards, the scope measures it different than how I was thinking. There's a pullup resistor or whatever inside the fan motor, the ECM provides a ground to pull it low. The scope assumes it's the other way around: normally low, pulled high when active. That's why the duty cycle looks funny, it's actually not inverse of the Desired %, it's the same. '75% duty cycle' displayed is really 25% duty cycle at 25% desired.

    Sounds like you're getting somewhere.

    Motor does have a pull-up resistor. (Almost all SPAL brushless fans are pull up resistor/negative type PWM, but there are different, high side drive fans out there usually 24V.)

    Frequency doesn't matter much, should work from 50 - 500 Hz. with most SPAL brushless fans. (Frequency doesn't impact fan speed.)

    25% High signal = 75% Low signal. It depends on how duty cycle is defined by the fan and the controller.

    -Brent


  10. #30
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Oh yes, it's been working beautifully. Love it. Just wish now I'd got the huge Camaro SS/CTS-V fan instead, only a little more money and uses the same wiring and control stuff.

    I still wish I knew why the fan works using PWM EV on the E38 but doesn't on the E40, got it working but I'm just weird like that...

  11. #31
    Tuner in Training Acerni's Avatar
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    i'm trying to do the same setup with aftermarket SPAL VA91-ABL326P_N-65A. My LS3 is a crate engine and it's fitted in a Jeep Wrangler without AC system. From what I read the AC pressure switch is necessary to have the PWM fan working properly. Do you have notice if it can be controlled without AC pressure switch?
    Thanks

  12. #32
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    The fan itself will work without an AC input, it only receives one PWM signal from the ECM. The ECM blends the output based on the two tables, ECT & AC Pressure. If the AC input is not present at the ECM, and it's seeing the unused AC pressure as zero KPA, then it will control the fan based solely on the ECT table.

    The aftermarket fans, as Brent stated earlier in this thread, use a different control logic than the OEM fans, so your aftermarket fan may not work (or may work backwards- full speed when cold and run slower as temp increases) when controlled by a signal meant to be compatible with the OEM fan.

  13. #33
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    The hardware requirements for most of the SPAL brushless fans are the same. But the software is different between SPAL OEM fans and the aftermarket fans. (The fan's software interprets the incoming signal differently.) So the VA91-ABL326P/N-65A fan will require you to get into the ECU software and update your fan table values. Most ECU's can drive our aftermarket fans as well, Holley even has a set up map you can download to drive our fans if you have a Holley ECU with a PWM output.

    I will be at the SEMA show if someone wants to talk brushless fans. Come find me in the SPAL booth.

    The 600 Watt brushless fan will not give you full performance at 11V, it probably wont give full performance below 12V. The fan will limit the current consumption as the voltage drops. So "most" of the time it won't go over 45A. This is to protect the motor from overheating, obviously.

    The SBL-TS01, SBL-TS02, SBL-TS03 sensors are technically obsolete, so they will not be available for order in the future.

    Little fun FYI for ya:
    SPAL has officially broken the 1kW power barrier for our OEM customers. We have a 12V fan ~1kW, a 24V fan ~1.2 kW, and a 48V fan ~1.5 kW.

  14. #34
    Tuner in Training Acerni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent2888 View Post
    The hardware requirements for most of the SPAL brushless fans are the same. But the software is different between SPAL OEM fans and the aftermarket fans. (The fan's software interprets the incoming signal differently.) So the VA91-ABL326P/N-65A fan will require you to get into the ECU software and update your fan table values. Most ECU's can drive our aftermarket fans as well, Holley even has a set up map you can download to drive our fans if you have a Holley ECU with a PWM output.

    I will be at the SEMA show if someone wants to talk brushless fans. Come find me in the SPAL booth.

    The 600 Watt brushless fan will not give you full performance at 11V, it probably wont give full performance below 12V. The fan will limit the current consumption as the voltage drops. So "most" of the time it won't go over 45A. This is to protect the motor from overheating, obviously.

    The SBL-TS01, SBL-TS02, SBL-TS03 sensors are technically obsolete, so they will not be available for order in the future.

    Little fun FYI for ya:
    SPAL has officially broken the 1kW power barrier for our OEM customers. We have a 12V fan ~1kW, a 24V fan ~1.2 kW, and a 48V fan ~1.5 kW.
    Brent

    Thanks for the reply, I'm from Italy but I'll attend Sema Show this year so i'll be more than happy to come and visit your Spal booth!
    See you there...

    Pier

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent2888 View Post
    The hardware requirements for most of the SPAL brushless fans are the same. But the software is different between SPAL OEM fans and the aftermarket fans. (The fan's software interprets the incoming signal differently.) So the VA91-ABL326P/N-65A fan will require you to get into the ECU software and update your fan table values. Most ECU's can drive our aftermarket fans as well, Holley even has a set up map you can download to drive our fans if you have a Holley ECU with a PWM output.

    I will be at the SEMA show if someone wants to talk brushless fans. Come find me in the SPAL booth.

    The 600 Watt brushless fan will not give you full performance at 11V, it probably wont give full performance below 12V. The fan will limit the current consumption as the voltage drops. So "most" of the time it won't go over 45A. This is to protect the motor from overheating, obviously.

    The SBL-TS01, SBL-TS02, SBL-TS03 sensors are technically obsolete, so they will not be available for order in the future.

    Little fun FYI for ya:
    SPAL has officially broken the 1kW power barrier for our OEM customers. We have a 12V fan ~1kW, a 24V fan ~1.2 kW, and a 48V fan ~1.5 kW.
    I remember reading the press release a few months back but havent found an oem application for it yet!
    I just got both my puller and pusher fans pull the signal directly from the ecu, my prev setup was for the camaro ss puller to use the spal sensor while the 600 watt pusher was ecu controlled.
    I tried keeping the signal wire from the temp sensor connected so I can use the over ride switch, it worked with a cold engine but Im worried that when the engine reaches the sensors operating range it would send a signal that adds to the one coming from the ecu (like 2 waves adding to each other, and at anything above 90% the fan logic will shut the fan off). Ill try to disconnect the sensor completely from the engine block so it no longer produces a temp related signal and then I can simply keep the over ride switch handy.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    C6 brushed 400W fan with that big Siemens module uses 'PWM Electric' logic, C7 brushless SPAL uses 'PWM EV'. Pull a '14-up Corvette tune from the repository for a look at the differences.

    The C7 Stingray fan is 500W (15-81913). C7 Z06 fan is 600W (15-81914)... and about $100 cheaper(?!). The shrouds and blades are the same, only difference is the motors.

    I'm using an E40, haven't tested it yet, I have all the major parts on hand (still gathering the last wiring bits and pieces). The C7 aux distribution block is compact, fits in a easily adapted bracket, has a nice secure cover, offers a B+ IN post, a 225A fused ALT post, an 80A FAN post, and a 100A post, used in the C7 for the EPS, but could be used for any other suitable high current accessory if you ever needed it.
    Fan assy: ACDelco 15-81914 ($190!)
    Harness connector: https://www.ebay.com/itm/233178180273
    C7 aux distribution block/bracket/cover: 23173653/23173654/23491757

    I really, really needed the fan connector on the driver side which would have meant rotating the C7 shroud upside down which would have put the flappy-vent things upside down and therefore non-functional... so I cut away everything but the fan itself. I picked up a 4.2L Trailblazer fan shroud ($22, new) and trimmed off anything that wasn't needed. I'm blanking it off with .063" 3003 sheet and mounting the C7 fan as if it were just another universal aftermarket unit.
    Thanks so much for the info. I was looking all over the webs for the harness connector.
    Thank you.

  17. #37
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    Bringing this one back up. Anybody have dimensions of that fan and shroud? Looking for side lengths, height and edges and height at center.
    Any help is appreciated

  18. #38
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Which fan? There are several different PNs discussed here.

  19. #39
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    Sorry, didn’t think of that. The C7 z06 version 15-81914 shown above from Brent 2888. I plan to use it on my race/true street car and drive the PWM functions from my FT600

  20. #40
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Mine's been all chopped up but I still have the pieces, I can reverse engineer it to get the thickness. For H x W, the C7 rad core is approx. 17-1/4 x 22. The shroud covers the entire core.

    The C7 fan moves a ton of air but it's still only a 14". If you have the room I'd use the 2016 CTS-V fan (core size 21 x 22, 19" fan).