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Thread: SPAL Brushless Fan Control issue

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    just to follow up if anyone finds this looking to put the c7 fan on the c6 e38 ecm. the fan % doesn't work like you'd logically think.. it didn't hit me till I put 40% across the board in all the temp boxes and the fan % never moved. this ecm seems to use the same base logic of tuning on 2 fans using relays, and then uses a math filter to put a %DC for the fan module. so I found leaving the stock fan curve in there and just copy and paste it a box or 2 to the left, while making sure not to go over 40% in the first box, since that will make it run all the time. I went two to the left and with a 170deg stat(remember the ls stat is on the cold side input and always runs much higher than the stat temp, 187 stock stat runs 210-220) it seems to target and sit nicely around 196deg at 30% fan request, which is like 6amp load. very nice.

    anyways, nice upgrade for 300$, moves a ton of air over stock and basically a direct hook up. you don't even need to tune the fan settings if you didn't change the stat.

    oh and if you do it in a c6 I found running the power wire to the alternator lug, with an inline fuse, I used a jcase 60amp in 8ga wire, but c7 used a block style 80amp which would be nice to use. but if you go to the aux lug on the fuse box like I did at first, there's a good voltage drop by the time it gets there, the alt wire is pretty thick but it has a 14ga fusible link at the starter before running up to the fuse box. you're asking that 14ga wire to handle a good 80amps or more when the car has everything on max. they sell a wiring kit called the big 3 for the c6 which you could use for 120$, but eh, just moving the fan to the alt lug removes the fan load from the rest of the system, I measured 40amps with the fan commanded to 90% when running with my amp clamp. and only 34 when the car isn't running, so there's some limiting going on in the fan if the voltage isn't high enough. I feel like the alt lug is just a better spot for it and the test of the factory wiring.

    lastly there's a fan setting that went the car is hot enough it. will run the fan for a few minutes at 60% with the car off to cool things down, I changed thst setting to 40% as that's about the same current draw as the stock fan at 60, and hopefully more airflow, but I can't measure airflow, so I went with amp load.
    Hi
    Could you share your fan settings ? I can't follow your valuable guidance without a picture
    Appreciate it

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by sparroheart View Post
    Hi
    Could you share your fan settings ? I can't follow your valuable guidance without a picture
    Appreciate it

    I'll have to open the laptop in a few. which table specifically would you like a pic of? what are you trying to do?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    just to follow up if anyone finds this looking to put the c7 fan on the c6 e38 ecm. the fan % doesn't work like you'd logically think.. it didn't hit me till I put 40% across the board in all the temp boxes and the fan % never moved. this ecm seems to use the same base logic of tuning on 2 fans using relays, and then uses a math filter to put a %DC for the fan module. so I found leaving the stock fan curve in there and just copy and paste it a box or 2 to the left, while making sure not to go over 40% in the first box, since that will make it run all the time. I went two to the left and with a 170deg stat(remember the ls stat is on the cold side input and always runs much higher than the stat temp, 187 stock stat runs 210-220) it seems to target and sit nicely around 196deg at 30% fan request, which is like 6amp load. very nice.

    anyways, nice upgrade for 300$, moves a ton of air over stock and basically a direct hook up. you don't even need to tune the fan settings if you didn't change the stat.

    oh and if you do it in a c6 I found running the power wire to the alternator lug, with an inline fuse, I used a jcase 60amp in 8ga wire, but c7 used a block style 80amp which would be nice to use. but if you go to the aux lug on the fuse box like I did at first, there's a good voltage drop by the time it gets there, the alt wire is pretty thick but it has a 14ga fusible link at the starter before running up to the fuse box. you're asking that 14ga wire to handle a good 80amps or more when the car has everything on max. they sell a wiring kit called the big 3 for the c6 which you could use for 120$, but eh, just moving the fan to the alt lug removes the fan load from the rest of the system, I measured 40amps with the fan commanded to 90% when running with my amp clamp. and only 34 when the car isn't running, so there's some limiting going on in the fan if the voltage isn't high enough. I feel like the alt lug is just a better spot for it and the test of the factory wiring.

    lastly there's a fan setting that went the car is hot enough it. will run the fan for a few minutes at 60% with the car off to cool things down, I changed thst setting to 40% as that's about the same current draw as the stock fan at 60, and hopefully more airflow, but I can't measure airflow, so I went with amp load.
    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    I'll have to open the laptop in a few. which table specifically would you like a pic of? what are you trying to do?
    I am putting a Camaro 850w brushless fan in my boosted C6 vette, 170 stat, looking for a suitable E38 fan settings, my stock settings are long gone

    If your interested, i can provide exact dimensions/pictures of the custom fan shroud
    Surprisingly no one tried this before

  4. #104
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    Surprisingly no one tried this before
    Uh huh. Oh, or do you mean no one tried this before with a Camaro fan in a custom shroud in a boosted C6 Vette with a 170* 'stat?

    Electrically, both the 14" C7 fan and the 19" Camaro/CTS-V fans are the same, and the control strategies are the same, too. The aftermarket brushless models are completely different and not recommended without changing to a standalone fan controller.

    To Mr. ???... The left-most cell always, ALWAYS, has to be '0', or else the fan doesn't turn off. Always been that way. And it does work logically, if you understand it. If you don't understand what it's doing then I guess it does seem pretty illogical.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by sparroheart View Post
    Hi
    Could you share your fan settings ? I can't follow your valuable guidance without a picture
    Appreciate it


    it definitely works with something more than 0 in box one without the fan coming on. just keep it under 40% ish and it's off. I've spent a ton of time on my settings and this is what works for me.

    I'll upload my current settings and I just took a which pic of the screen from my phone for the rest, since it's way easier to post lol. let me of you can't zoom in and read something.

    should be the stock settings, my current fan to coolent temp, my current fan to ac pressure, incase you kept ac and my after the car is off cooling settings.


    and no I don't really understand it, I honestly thought at first looking at the graph if you put say 40% in the 199 deg box that when your cat hit 199deg your ecm would send 40% pwm to the fan. logging fan request % and it does not.. it sends nothing until you hit that magic 1% more and then it comes on, I don't remember what that is, I wanna say it's 43%? it's only about the curve, so while I don't understand it, I found what worked thru trial and error, which was just shift the stock curve to the left, I then played with it a bit, I wanted it in early but till after the t stat temp and not at as high % as stock since my fan puts out alot more airflow for the same %. and since my car only got hot on the track it seemed useless to run the fan at a high precent at idle and around town, just enough % to keep it just above or close to the tstat temp was my goal and than max up in the 200degs of a track day. I used my amp clamp and how much amps it was pulling while adjusting the % under say 190deg coolent Temps. probably could be better, but I was happy enough I moved on.

    and I'd love to see some pics, which radiator are you running, the shorter version for boosted cars or standard size? I didn't look into the camaro one at all. I don't know much if anything about it, and the c7 fan was 200$ new off rock auto but I bet that camaro fan is going to be a monster, definitely update with how it cooled the car after. these cars boosted are a nightmare to keep cool.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ???; 11-04-2022 at 06:05 PM.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    just to follow up if anyone finds this looking to put the c7 fan on the c6 e38 ecm. the fan % doesn't work like you'd logically think.. it didn't hit me till I put 40% across the board in all the temp boxes and the fan % never moved. this ecm seems to use the same base logic of tuning on 2 fans using relays, and then uses a math filter to put a %DC for the fan module. so I found leaving the stock fan curve in there and just copy and paste it a box or 2 to the left, while making sure not to go over 40% in the first box, since that will make it run all the time. I went two to the left and with a 170deg stat(remember the ls stat is on the cold side input and always runs much higher than the stat temp, 187 stock stat runs 210-220) it seems to target and sit nicely around 196deg at 30% fan request, which is like 6amp load. very nice.

    anyways, nice upgrade for 300$, moves a ton of air over stock and basically a direct hook up. you don't even need to tune the fan settings if you didn't change the stat.

    oh and if you do it in a c6 I found running the power wire to the alternator lug, with an inline fuse, I used a jcase 60amp in 8ga wire, but c7 used a block style 80amp which would be nice to use. but if you go to the aux lug on the fuse box like I did at first, there's a good voltage drop by the time it gets there, the alt wire is pretty thick but it has a 14ga fusible link at the starter before running up to the fuse box. you're asking that 14ga wire to handle a good 80amps or more when the car has everything on max. they sell a wiring kit called the big 3 for the c6 which you could use for 120$, but eh, just moving the fan to the alt lug removes the fan load from the rest of the system, I measured 40amps with the fan commanded to 90% when running with my amp clamp. and only 34 when the car isn't running, so there's some limiting going on in the fan if the voltage isn't high enough. I feel like the alt lug is just a better spot for it and the test of the factory wiring.

    lastly there's a fan setting that went the car is hot enough it. will run the fan for a few minutes at 60% with the car off to cool things down, I changed thst setting to 40% as that's about the same current draw as the stock fan at 60, and hopefully more airflow, but I can't measure airflow, so I went with amp load.
    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    it definitely works with something more than 0 in box one without the fan coming on. just keep it under 40% ish and it's off. I've spent a ton of time on my settings and this is what works for me.

    I'll upload my current settings and I just took a which pic of the screen from my phone for the rest, since it's way easier to post lol. let me of you can't zoom in and read something.

    should be the stock settings, my current fan to coolent temp, my current fan to ac pressure, incase you kept ac and my after the car is off cooling settings.


    and no I don't really understand it, I honestly thought at first looking at the graph if you put say 40% in the 199 deg box that when your cat hit 199deg your ecm would send 40% pwm to the fan. logging fan request % and it does not.. it sends nothing until you hit that magic 1% more and then it comes on, I don't remember what that is, I wanna say it's 43%? it's only about the curve, so while I don't understand it, I found what worked thru trial and error, which was just shift the stock curve to the left, I then played with it a bit, I wanted it in early but till after the t stat temp and not at as high % as stock since my fan puts out alot more airflow for the same %. and since my car only got hot on the track it seemed useless to run the fan at a high precent at idle and around town, just enough % to keep it just above or close to the tstat temp was my goal and than max up in the 200degs of a track day. I used my amp clamp and how much amps it was pulling while adjusting the % under say 190deg coolent Temps. probably could be better, but I was happy enough I moved on.

    and I'd love to see some pics, which radiator are you running, the shorter version for boosted cars or standard size? I didn't look into the camaro one at all. I don't know much if anything about it, and the c7 fan was 200$ new off rock auto but I bet that camaro fan is going to be a monster, definitely update with how it cooled the car after. these cars boosted are a nightmare to keep cool.
    I did many fan setups, many custom made radiators, now i went back to 1" stock radiator because i need A/C, the bigger Rad and inefficient fan combo will overheate the condenser and kill the A/C despite the reasonable ECT. man i had very expensive lessons in thermal dynamics.
    I have choosen the 850w brushless fan because it's made for stacked-coolers applications that's exactly what i needed, twin Spal 2720 CFM didn't do good matter of fact engine overheated the moment tstat opened they couldn't keep up, each may pull 1360 CFM but it is localized to the half of the radiator unlike the stock fan which pulls 1600 cfm in a bigger area and more efficiency due to the bigger blade size

    Firs of all i got a new Camaro fan, cut it precisely with a oscillating saw from its original shroud, sanded ridges and ended up with an exact 19 10/16" diameter fan assy, the inside diameter of the fan itself is 18", extra 1 10/16" is divided by 2 for the cage circumference

    Stock Rad CORE width is 23 7/16"
    Hight is 17" but there is top and bottom
    1/2" Protection extensions which will make the
    edge to edge measurement go to 18 15/32"

    Practically the 19" fan will overhang Radiator by 1.282" divided by 2 that's a 37/64" or 0.581" top and bottom add to that the thickness of your selected aluminum shroud gauge in my case it's a 0.063" x2
    I deliberately installed the shroud on the Rad with a biasing of the center line towards bottom by a 1/2" because i have an aluminum charge pipe running at the top . The current clearance is approximately 1/4"
    Still working on the vette, doing some upgrades, waterpump, oil pump, timing chain, new Cam, mechman 170amp (very important for the brushless fan including upgrading alternator feeds as the OE fan will never put out the needed juice as i noticed a severe drop in amperage with thermal Derating despite its a brand new Geniune GM alternator)
    Will definitely update you with the results once i got it finished and tuned

    Sorry i couldn't upload pictures from my phone the forum won't let it happen
    I will try later using a laptop and will get margins by a mesuring tape on the shroud for a better reference before final installation
    Thank you for the sittings
    Last edited by sparroheart; 11-05-2022 at 02:55 AM.

  7. #107
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    yup didn't see it before so i took a gamble chopping a fan priced $736 at the local GM dealer!
    i think its the ultimate solution for the C6 congested cooling system.. we will see soon!

  8. #108
    very interesting. sounds like you got it about sorted.

    I'm running the DeWitt rad with the oil cooler in the end tanks and the c7 smaller fan, the shroud doesn't cover the whole core, but definitely way more than the factory fan that has basically no shroud. I don't have a big intercooler in front of the stack like you probably have, but I will say it pulls a significant amount of air thru the ac condenseor just by hand feel and it will suck a rag to it way harder than the oem fan did. I'm guessing your 850w fan even more so. hopefully you have good results. glad you're upgrading wiring, gotta get that fan load off the factory wiring running all that thru a little fuesable link. just for reference this is what I saw for current draw

    oem fan 15% 1.8amps 50% 8.3 amps 90% 24amps.

    c7 brushless 15% 2.4amps 50% 8.3amps 89%(90%and above it shut off in my testing) 36.2 amps.

    I wouldn't be surprised if you're 850w was over 40amps, so 80amp slow blow fuse setup? that's a lot. I have an under drive crank pulley, but smaller alt pulley to bring the rpm slightly above the stock ratio, and my idle bumped up to 800rpm from the stock 750. the oem alt just keeps up at idle in stopped traffic in the 100deg south tx heat with the ac on max with my ac fan settings and keeps the high side pressure right around stock, any more and I get into running off the battery if sit with my foot on the brake long enough. I definitely could use a better alt, but I don't really like any of the aftermarket reviews or the cost. plus I take long road trips to the mountains and having a custom alt fail in the middle of nowhere just seems bad. I've looked into running a c7 alt, but not followed up yet. they require a pwm out from the ecm to control output voltage. some of the camaro guys were able to run a small converter box to adjust the voltage output. I believe our ecm will put out the needed pwn signal, as I've switched the drop down box in hp, thrown some random numbers in it. hooked up my scope and got a nice square wave, the frequency wasn't right, but I am pretty sure you can get what's needed out of the settings. it's on my listed to mess with one day. it's just working well enough for my na car right now I moved on to other annoying area's. for yours I'd run the oem ac pressure to % curve to start with thou, and log your high side ac pressure. since you've had issues, I don't know that I'd trust mine as a starting point.

    to post pics from my phone, I have to click the button to load full site, not the mobile version, and then reply under go advanced. then the manage attachments button comes up and it let's me upload.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by sparroheart View Post
    yup didn't see it before so i took a gamble chopping a fan priced $736 at the local GM dealer!
    i think its the ultimate solution for the C6 congested cooling system.. we will see soon!
    ouch at 700$ I wasn't sure about ordering the 200$ c7 fan and it not fitting, I almost just went oem fan from a 2005 with the full shroud and the upgraded radiator, thanking that would be enough for my car, since I really only had oil cooling issues, completely stock setup kept my coolent temp reasonable but oil Temps would push past 300 in just 2 laps at speed. the front mount air to oil cooler just isn't it even with a small spal fan mounted to it, I believe they switched to water to oil on the zr1 for good reason.

    but considering what I see the corvette guys pay for the small dual fan setups that I also got the feeling didn't really work very well. 700 is a bargain haha.

    above, I believe blindsquirrel is running that 850w fan on his truck? with good results?

  10. #110
    just took a quick look at the wiring diagram from a camao, looks like they are running a 100amp fuse to that fan. wow.

    it doesn't show me wire size, but the c7 fan uses, what comes out to about a 7g wire and a 80amp fuse. they use the metric wire sizing of cm squared or something like that. since we can't really buy 7g I went with 8g as it's a short run and I used a 60amp slow blow jcase fuse and the biggest holder I found cheap was 8g. I feel it's adequate for my setup, but you might wanna step up to a 6g for that 100amp wiring.

    that's a lot of fan.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    just took a quick look at the wiring diagram from a camao, looks like they are running a 100amp fuse to that fan. wow.

    it doesn't show me wire size, but the c7 fan uses, what comes out to about a 7g wire and a 80amp fuse. they use the metric wire sizing of cm squared or something like that. since we can't really buy 7g I went with 8g as it's a short run and I used a 60amp slow blow jcase fuse and the biggest holder I found cheap was 8g. I feel it's adequate for my setup, but you might wanna step up to a 6g for that 100amp wiring.

    that's a lot of fan.
    indeed i am runing AWG 6 for the fan feed as 850w/12.6v=67A at full power
    a copper AWG 6 is more than capable of pushing 100A under 6ft length, accounting for under hood thermal Derating amp drop it should be adequate
    Alt Feed is 35mm2 a little fatter than AWG 2 capable of 145 A
    both alt and fan are 100A fused in an auxiliary box
    BTW your alternator is hanging by a thread
    i assume you have the stock Valeo T15 140A
    IAW GM SB 02-06-03-008D
    at 81F idling @750 rpm your alternator output rating is 50% equals to 70A in cold weather
    at 221F idling @750 your alternator output rating is 30% equals to 42A in Hot weather, you need about 20 A to run coils and injectors and around 10A to run the ECM so you are out of head room and the alternator temperature will be significantly elevated decreasing its life

    still trying with the pictures

  12. #112
    that makes sense, I'm definitely on the edge of what it puts out in worse case and would agree over the edge for a daily driver. I do want to find an alt that charges a bit more at idle, but just hard for me to trust aftermarket stuff like that. I like repurposing higher rated stuff from other applications. I don't remember right now, but I did clip my amp clamp around the alt wire when I had the fan in the aux lug in the fuse box and at idle everything on, it was really high and that was on a cold engine/alt. the car isn't my daily, and I tend to avoid traffic since it's a manual, mostly I run into it in drive-thrus. but I also remember when it was completely stock stuck in traffic for about an hour on a 110deg day and the alt couldn't keep up then, it would. drop down to battery and the ac would get warmer. so these cars start out on edge. gm seemed to leave a lot to be desired in the cooling and charging system area. I would say in the leg room area for tall people too haha

    my old 96 2 door tahoe, once adding electric fans that alt didn't have a chance. little 100 amp thing, I found a larger case cross reference that bolted right in off a diesel application that would happily idle at 600rpm with everything on max all day long even with a larger pulley on it than stock while putting out 90 amps. I had to upgrade the wiring to keep that happy, noticed pretty quickly it got warm and a bit soft on those hot days. but it was solid for years and 95$ at any auto parts store. I have delusions of finding something like that for the c6. this oem one has over 100k on it and has had a hard life, from over loading it and a lot of high rpm. another reason why I went brushless and tried to adjust fan current to less than the stock fan but on sooner at times it wasn't necessary to be blasting away unneeded load on the alt sitting on the t stat. my thoughts being brushless being more efficient at moving air as lower current plus a better shroud then stock. I would be curious what you find as actual amount load at max when you get it up and running. there's a few posts I've caught about people thinking there's some build in current limits in the internal fan controller. theory I saw was gm had some requirements programed in that maybe the aftermarket ones don't have based on voltage available or Temps. since like mine 700w at 12v would be 58 amps, but I've never been about to see anywhere near that engine running on not commanded to max.

    if you're using an apple, it might not let you upload stuff. I have a work issued iPad and it is kinda crazy how little fiction they allow with those things on websites. that could be the pic issue.

    which 170 stat are you running? I remember there's a whole can of worms about ls thermostats as well with the size split around 2008-9. and most aftermarket being rebranded motorad with questionable opening Temps

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    that makes sense, I'm definitely on the edge of what it puts out in worse case and would agree over the edge for a daily driver. I do want to find an alt that charges a bit more at idle, but just hard for me to trust aftermarket stuff like that. I like repurposing higher rated stuff from other applications. I don't remember right now, but I did clip my amp clamp around the alt wire when I had the fan in the aux lug in the fuse box and at idle everything on, it was really high and that was on a cold engine/alt. the car isn't my daily, and I tend to avoid traffic since it's a manual, mostly I run into it in drive-thrus. but I also remember when it was completely stock stuck in traffic for about an hour on a 110deg day and the alt couldn't keep up then, it would. drop down to battery and the ac would get warmer. so these cars start out on edge. gm seemed to leave a lot to be desired in the cooling and charging system area. I would say in the leg room area for tall people too haha

    my old 96 2 door tahoe, once adding electric fans that alt didn't have a chance. little 100 amp thing, I found a larger case cross reference that bolted right in off a diesel application that would happily idle at 600rpm with everything on max all day long even with a larger pulley on it than stock while putting out 90 amps. I had to upgrade the wiring to keep that happy, noticed pretty quickly it got warm and a bit soft on those hot days. but it was solid for years and 95$ at any auto parts store. I have delusions of finding something like that for the c6. this oem one has over 100k on it and has had a hard life, from over loading it and a lot of high rpm. another reason why I went brushless and tried to adjust fan current to less than the stock fan but on sooner at times it wasn't necessary to be blasting away unneeded load on the alt sitting on the t stat. my thoughts being brushless being more efficient at moving air as lower current plus a better shroud then stock. I would be curious what you find as actual amount load at max when you get it up and running. there's a few posts I've caught about people thinking there's some build in current limits in the internal fan controller. theory I saw was gm had some requirements programed in that maybe the aftermarket ones don't have based on voltage available or Temps. since like mine 700w at 12v would be 58 amps, but I've never been about to see anywhere near that engine running on not commanded to max.

    if you're using an apple, it might not let you upload stuff. I have a work issued iPad and it is kinda crazy how little fiction they allow with those things on websites. that could be the pic issue.

    which 170 stat are you running? I remember there's a whole can of worms about ls thermostats as well with the size split around 2008-9. and most aftermarket being rebranded motorad with questionable opening Temps
    To my knowledge the only 170 degree tstat for LS is made by lingenfelter or a rebranded Motorad. FWIW a brand new NA LS3 engine build 10.7:1 CR with full on time stock radiator fan will yield 177F ECT sitting at idle (no loads) with the 170 tstat, weather temperature is 80F, thats pretty accurate and tells you that the tstat is doing its job the question is how good its able to do it and what factors contribute to the tstat temp regulation

    Let me throw in my 2ć and elaborate because i see tons of misconceptions and a mixture of new/old school cooling systems misunderstandings
    What's the job of a Thermostat
    Its a Regulator, it synchronize the opening of the coolant passage with the closing of the bypass passage, it's a linear process
    Now how that possible in our High Compression engines?
    It's not possible it all because our cooling system lacks efficiency once that tstat opens it will never closes until you shut down your engines and repeat the heat cycle. In my LS3 once i load the engine ECT will hover over 200F and will stay there, in a hot climate it will never see tstat opening temp it will straight shoot above 200F idling, that's will end the "performance tstat" discussion because the cooling system can't sustain a the supposed regulated tstat lower temperature

    Compare that to 2005+ GM (low compression engines) trucks cooling system, they have a massive radiator, big twin fans and a massive grill. When you install a lower temp tstat and sync cooling fans accordingly it will maintain the lower temperature, tstat will closes and opens multiple times in a drive cycle, fans will be able to shut down because their on command is below threshold no problems whatsoever, it is an efficient system.

    In circuit Race built engines, builders delete tstat and plug bypass passage but here's the catch, they are using a high Volume WP and they don't need a warm up,

    in our engines tstat is designed to decrease the fluid pressure and increase the Velocity, why? Most likely to control the cooler soak time, that's why people who installs a thicker radiator will end up overheating because they unknowingly killed the circulation speed in the radiator, No Volume No velocity and probably weak thermal exchange will definitely result in overheating
    I've seen that happening before my eyes, engine took forever to warm up and once it crossed operating temp it failed to maintain reasonable temperature

    I just installed the newer 2009+ WP, it takes 2007+ truck tstat, just that tells you it will definitely flow more thus i heard many good things about it being an updated version of the older design however i didn't spend the time necessary to compare/contrast the designs

    I am using a Samsung phone
    Still no dice 😕

  14. #114
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    PS. look up eBay 00-06 MERCEDES S430 S500 S55 S600 W220 180 AMP POWER ALTERNATOR ASSEMBLY OEM
    It's a 2 pin internal regulated Bosch alt $125 used
    Mercedes pn 0124625007
    I have seen its blueprint and modifying it to fit in an LS is pretty promising, i am almost sure a capable machinist can adjust the offsets and bring it inline with OE Alt
    Last edited by sparroheart; 11-05-2022 at 06:41 PM.

  15. #115
    interesting, I'll have to check out that alternator. I'll swing by a parts store and see what it looks like. there's a 220amp one off a 2019 3500HD suburban I've been wanting to see. supposedly it's a drop in for the 150amp smaller trucks.


    I tend to agree with your 2 cents but feels there's a few more factors involved.

    so the drift kids run into what I think you've seen, they put huge radiators in them, because a minute or 2 of wot bouncing off limiter with no airflow except for the fans is hard on their cooling, the big high flow works on track but then they comeback and sit in line again and the Temps don't drop at idle well at all, the fix for them, is say you have a cross flow radiator with inlet on top and outlet on the other side bottom. without enough high flow and the pressure of high rpm, the water just runs across the top row of tubs and falls straight down the end tank to the outlet, never really crossing the cooled part. what they do is since the end take is aluminum, about half way up the outlet side tank the cut a slot with a band saw up to almost the core, slide a piece of flat aluminum in there and weld it back up, that turns the radiator into a dual pass, I've even seen triple pass made. so the fluid is forced to travel back across the radiator no matter how slowly its flowing. it seems to work well for them.

    the other consideration with these ls engines, the thermostat is on the wrong side of the engine when compared to basically any other engine. I'll use the old sbc as an example. I currently own 2 ls and have had other but still have a soft spot for the sbc, such a solid old engine, but anyways. the t stat is on the top of the engine after the water runs thru the block, last thing it does is flow up the heads, pasted the temp sensor into the intake thru the stat and into the hot side of the radiator(more like a fuel pressure regulator is used in the fuel system). so your stat bulb gets the same temp water as what's going by your temp sensor. it's cooled by the radiator and goes back into the block. the ls is backwards to that, that hot water comes out of the water pump, into the hot side of the radiator, gets cooled down and then runs into the stat, with some getting bypassed thru the heater core. there's some heat transfer from the aluminum water pump and engine side water into the stat, but it's just odd. to me that's why a stock temp stat is 187, but your coolent temp sensor in the head will always read 220 even in the dead of winter cruising on the hiway in a stock car. there's just a crazy drop in Temps from where the stat bulb is and where the temp sensor/heat water temp is. so to compensate, you gotta run a much cooler stat then you want your head Temps to be.

    my car runs almost exactly how the math would be, with the stock 187deg cruising on the interstate it was 215-220 most of the time(of course I never drove it in a northern winter to see, just the low 40s or so). I put a 170deg stat in it, being 17 degrees cooler than stock, on the same interstate run where the fan isn't a factor I run about 187 and cycling up to 195 ish. that's how it makes sense to me anyways. 80 deg is a nice day here, it was probably a little warmer than that in my garage when I was testing stuff, and I could let it idle and come up to 230 request the fan to 90% and it would come right down and set on the thermostat, or at least the head temp reading I expect to see from the 170 stat on the cold side.


    I almost did the same thing as you did with the water pump, I have a 2008 which of course is the split year, and I ordered the bigger one first which was wrong. I then got the smaller motorad one, but while it's listed at 180, it's stamped like 184. only 3 degrees under stock. I ran it for a bit, but noticed no difference in Temps over the stock 187. reading around on boards, there's guy that bought like 5 of the motorad stats and tested them in water on his stove and they opened all over the place. I wanna say like a 10deg differences from highest to lowest. he kept the one that matched what temp he wanted and sold the rest used as certified temps lol. the bigger 180 is a 170 something if you look down in the inside. 174 I wanna say? something like that. so I almost bought the bigger pump, to run that one. but I found a very old archived thread from a guy that bought a true 170deg stat for a 94 Nissan 240, made by mahle. I have a pic somewhere, it's a high quality one that looks identical to the oem one, even the same markings on the it. just the bypass is not long enough to seal off that port, so you take off the c clip, flip the small metal plate over, and then tack weld the bottom plate from the oem 187deg stat, slide it back on, putting the clip is is a bit of a hassle lol and its perfect. you have oem quality 170deg stat that no one makes. seems to worm well for me so far.


    anyways totally off topic, just something I spent over a year playing with till I was happy with it. lol oh yeah, my point haha. I'm not sure how with the thermostat of the ls being in the intake side of the water pump would increase the Velocity of the water when it opens vs it not being there, I'm not seeing how it does that? the pump would cavitate because it's on the suction side? I believe that's why it needs the bypass to keep that from happening while it's closed.

    on the note of the big truck, I happen to have a 2011 yukon, it's the hybrid one so it has ridiculous fans and a huge radiator, also no torque converter to need cooling. it has 3 speeds to the fans and has the same 187deg stat with that big radiator and runs 220 all day long even when you set the ac on max to simulate adjusting the fans to come on soon in the tune, set to max low temp the fans are on high speed and sound like a jet engine lol. runs super low high side ac pressure too, like normal to see it 150-200psi, seems low to me to get get heat transfer, but the ac will freeze you out with an electric compressor, so what do I know haha. anyways once up to 210 it stays there. now I'm sure in sub zone Temps it could go lower but for a normal range, I feel like that's just the head water temp you're going to get when your cold side thermostat starts to open at 187deg and gm wants 220 for emissions reasons.

    just my thoughts, I could be totally wrong haha, just like me not really understanding how the code side works for the fan % chart. I have to hunt and peck my way thru stuff sometimes.


    oh I found the pic, kinda crazy how close they look, it's like mahle made the gm one or something. the top side rubber even has the letter E on it in the same spot.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #116
    Tuner in Training
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    Nov 2022
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    15
    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    just took a quick look at the wiring diagram from a camao, looks like they are running a 100amp fuse to that fan. wow.

    it doesn't show me wire size, but the c7 fan uses, what comes out to about a 7g wire and a 80amp fuse. they use the metric wire sizing of cm squared or something like that. since we can't really buy 7g I went with 8g as it's a short run and I used a 60amp slow blow jcase fuse and the biggest holder I found cheap was 8g. I feel it's adequate for my setup, but you might wanna step up to a 6g for that 100amp wiring.

    that's a lot of fan.
    Good news, able to upload via work computer no hope from mobile phone or laptop
    sorry to keep you hanging i am working on weekends only, here are some pictures of the project
    Max Amp draw testing is coming soon !! the fan is responding to OE fan settings without any modifications

  17. #117

  18. #118
    that looks like a great setup and with the thin radiator there's so much room. very nice.


    I think you will have very good luck with this setup.. definitely interesting in what you find as amp load at max fan speed.

  19. #119
    Tuner in Training
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    Nov 2022
    Posts
    15
    Today, I was preparing my Snap-on vantage pro oscilloscope, put a new battery in the amp clamp, took the car around the block and baam the alternator is on fire it could not take the abuse of a constant 63A draw
    Ordering a new custom made 250A alternator from mechman soon

    While testing the new rig, i can tell you the fan is so efficient at cooling that you can feel the temperature difference of the drawn air from the L/H of the radiator and the R/H side, one side is torching hot and the other is as cold as the atmosphere

    I didn't experienced this before, a fan so capable it can cool down the radiator midways, despite an A/C condenser and a 3" air to air Intercooler stacked on it, it was fun while it lasted though

    Btw i didn't update the tune, i am waiting till i get a dyno tune however i am sure the fan will go 90% at 199F and stay there till a power down. On this settings the fan is very capable of bringing the temp down to196F and slows down till it hits the threshold again in 2-3 minutes, also, i never experienced that before on a c6 let alone a boosted one

    Stay tuned till i get the new alternator installed!

  20. #120
    ouch.. definitely sounds like you wouldn't want to have it running at max all the time but sounds like it wouldn't need to be to stay cool now. hopefully you have good luck with that alt. I've seen a few posts of them failing but I don't think as bad as catching fire lol.