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Thread: Hoping to fix Whipple flutter/ surge at part throttle

  1. #21
    Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    I'm thinking changing (smoothing) the desired cam angles made the biggest improvement in getting rid of the surging. I would watch the boost drop off and the exh angle went from 122-124 to 114 as the rpm kept rising, repeat and rinse. Just a guess though, I was all over the map changing things and this seemed to work.

    A link I found before: https://www.challengertalk.com/forum...93/index4.html pg four. Pector55 coined it
    2013 Chrysler 300S, 6.4 BGE with 6.4 SRT cam, AIT 18% OD pulley, E-force with 2.75 pulley(11.4lbs boost), fastman 84+4 mm throttle body, 1 7/8 kooks long tubes w/hi-flow cats, Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Trans built by Hellraiser, Dings Racing valve body and tune, Getrag 3.73, Walbro 400LPH, DW 65# inj. LG aluminum rad. Dual SRT fans. Complete 4 piston Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO 420 275/40R22 - 295/30R22

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by blown392 View Post
    The files requested are attached. I will make my legal disclaimer here that any use of these files is at your own risk! The modified version is still in the works as I believe I have a false knock issue which I posted about in another thread. I hope that this helps and be careful!
    Thanks bro. My request was purely for academic purposes.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    Stock 6.4L Jeep file
    Its only taking me forever but Im about to load this file if it looks as it should.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    I'm thinking changing (smoothing) the desired cam angles made the biggest improvement in getting rid of the surging. I would watch the boost drop off and the exh angle went from 122-124 to 114 as the rpm kept rising, repeat and rinse. Just a guess though, I was all over the map changing things and this seemed to work.

    A link I found before: https://www.challengertalk.com/forum...93/index4.html pg four. Pector55 coined it
    The cam timing change helps rid most/all the surging.....however...later you may also see/log that you are not getting full boost at part throttle.
    This is where the airflow changes help.
    Once you get full boost at p/t, you will find the cam timing needs to be different from the OE WOT settings...
    Refer to my previously posted tune as a guide.

  5. #25
    Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Probably right. All I know is my car pulls hard thru mid throttle now, no on/off boost. I just can't get fueling dialed in to hold it WOT, seems PE is delayed too long, can only plagiarize and tweek to a point. O, I did plagiarize that part of your tune.
    Last edited by coanan; 02-23-2019 at 09:17 PM.
    2013 Chrysler 300S, 6.4 BGE with 6.4 SRT cam, AIT 18% OD pulley, E-force with 2.75 pulley(11.4lbs boost), fastman 84+4 mm throttle body, 1 7/8 kooks long tubes w/hi-flow cats, Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Trans built by Hellraiser, Dings Racing valve body and tune, Getrag 3.73, Walbro 400LPH, DW 65# inj. LG aluminum rad. Dual SRT fans. Complete 4 piston Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO 420 275/40R22 - 295/30R22

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    Probably right. All I know is my car pulls hard thru mid throttle now, no on/off boost. I just can't get fueling dialed in to hold it WOT, seems PE is delayed too long, can only plagiarize and tweek to a point. O, I did plagiarize that part of your tune.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2013 Chrysler 300S, 6.4 BGE with 6.4 SRT cam, AIT 18% OD pulley, E-force with 2.75 pulley(11.4lbs boost), fastman 84+4 mm throttle body, 1 7/8 kooks long tubes w/hi-flow cats, Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Trans built by Hellraiser, Dings Racing valve body and tune, Getrag 3.73, Walbro 400LPH, DW 65# inj. LG aluminum rad. Dual SRT fans. Complete 4 piston Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO 420 275/40R22 - 295/30R22

  7. #27
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    Do steal my cam timing also, you are about 10degs too advanced for blower.
    PE is coming in...EQ aim is .81 while wideband is 1.0+... so injectors and/or VE or vac/boost compensation probably need more tweaking.
    Are you NN on or off??

  8. #28
    Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    Do steal my cam timing also, you are about 10degs too advanced for blower.
    PE is coming in...EQ aim is .81 while wideband is 1.0+... so injectors and/or VE or vac/boost compensation probably need more tweaking.
    Are you NN on or off??
    NN on. I copied your timing also. Made some changes to inj/fuel mass. haven't loaded it yet.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by coanan; 02-24-2019 at 07:21 PM.
    2013 Chrysler 300S, 6.4 BGE with 6.4 SRT cam, AIT 18% OD pulley, E-force with 2.75 pulley(11.4lbs boost), fastman 84+4 mm throttle body, 1 7/8 kooks long tubes w/hi-flow cats, Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Trans built by Hellraiser, Dings Racing valve body and tune, Getrag 3.73, Walbro 400LPH, DW 65# inj. LG aluminum rad. Dual SRT fans. Complete 4 piston Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO 420 275/40R22 - 295/30R22

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    The cam timing change helps rid most/all the surging.....however...later you may also see/log that you are not getting full boost at part throttle.
    This is where the airflow changes help.
    Once you get full boost at p/t, you will find the cam timing needs to be different from the OE WOT settings...
    Refer to my previously posted tune as a guide.
    Hello Ben. I just wanted to say thanks and I really appreciate you helping me as well as others get rid of the surge. My wifes car drives soo much better! Wished I would have loaded the tune much sooner but took me awhile to realize I could copy certain sections from Comparison Log Differences.
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  10. #30
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    Hey Guys,

    I tuned a 2017 with the flutter. However, I was able to resolve that by changing throttle tables after multiple revisions. I am currently working on 2013 RT and it seems to have quite a few options less for resolving this issue. So I'm hoping you guys can point me in the right direction to get this flutter gone. I have went up and down with ETC Voltage. I am almost wondering if I have missed something else. Jitter starts at 32 seconds in the log.

    Flutter_4.hptFlutter.hplStock.hpt

  11. #31
    Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMR View Post
    Hey Guys,

    I tuned a 2017 with the flutter. However, I was able to resolve that by changing throttle tables after multiple revisions. I am currently working on 2013 RT and it seems to have quite a few options less for resolving this issue. So I'm hoping you guys can point me in the right direction to get this flutter gone. I have went up and down with ETC Voltage. I am almost wondering if I have missed something else. Jitter starts at 32 seconds in the log.

    Flutter_4.hptFlutter.hplStock.hpt
    look at this tune, for some reason it will not upload the log file
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2013 Chrysler 300S, 6.4 BGE with 6.4 SRT cam, AIT 18% OD pulley, E-force with 2.75 pulley(11.4lbs boost), fastman 84+4 mm throttle body, 1 7/8 kooks long tubes w/hi-flow cats, Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Trans built by Hellraiser, Dings Racing valve body and tune, Getrag 3.73, Walbro 400LPH, DW 65# inj. LG aluminum rad. Dual SRT fans. Complete 4 piston Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO 420 275/40R22 - 295/30R22

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMR View Post
    Hey Guys,

    I tuned a 2017 with the flutter. However, I was able to resolve that by changing throttle tables after multiple revisions. I am currently working on 2013 RT and it seems to have quite a few options less for resolving this issue. So I'm hoping you guys can point me in the right direction to get this flutter gone. I have went up and down with ETC Voltage. I am almost wondering if I have missed something else. Jitter starts at 32 seconds in the log.

    Flutter_4.hptFlutter.hplStock.hpt
    Yes, you can resolve surging/flutter by changing/reducing throttle (Driver Demand) tables.
    Basically you dull down the response to pedal till it stops surging...but you have then created a dog.
    If you look at stock file...in Engine diagnostics/airflow max rpm.
    The values are quite low.......so of course everyone raises them up.
    However, at part throttle (where you get the flutter), they still seem to use the original values even when you raise them (probably the OE airflow model).
    Check your log, at 2000rpm approx 120g/s airflow it starts to flutter..
    THe OE file @ 2000rpm has airflow max 105ish g/s...you have raised it to 511.
    But guess which value it is still actually using?? Yup, the OE value ...So PT airflow is being limited and hence the flutter.
    Now the 6.4's have crazy cam timing in that zone which makes problem even worse, so changing that helps a lot..
    RT's are better, but should also run cam timing with blower retarded from NA stock and closer to the LSA which is 114.5.
    Then, reworking the airflow tables downward (substantially) especially after .7 - 1.0v will lower the apparent/calculated airflow and allow the TB to stay open.

    Also...your baro is 132kpa...I think that needs work.
    Last edited by Hemituna; 02-25-2019 at 05:18 PM.

  13. #33
    Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    odd, it loaded morning log
    Attached Files Attached Files
    2013 Chrysler 300S, 6.4 BGE with 6.4 SRT cam, AIT 18% OD pulley, E-force with 2.75 pulley(11.4lbs boost), fastman 84+4 mm throttle body, 1 7/8 kooks long tubes w/hi-flow cats, Magnaflow Cat-back, FTI 2800 stall, Trans built by Hellraiser, Dings Racing valve body and tune, Getrag 3.73, Walbro 400LPH, DW 65# inj. LG aluminum rad. Dual SRT fans. Complete 4 piston Brembo upgrade. Stage one MOPAR springs, XIX X39 22x9 +15 - 22x10.5 +22 with NITTO 420 275/40R22 - 295/30R22

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    The cam timing change helps rid most/all the surging.....however...later you may also see/log that you are not getting full boost at part throttle.
    This is where the airflow changes help.
    Once you get full boost at p/t, you will find the cam timing needs to be different from the OE WOT settings...
    Refer to my previously posted tune as a guide.
    IM confused - why are you TRYING to get full boost at part throttle? I spend many days tuning these cars to ride right on the edge of the mechanical bypass snapping shut and going into full boost, I would never tune a car to see full boost at part throttle, we target 3-4psi max as that is about max you can get before the bypass snaps shut.

    EDIT: Are you just saying you tune to see the max airflow you can get at a given throttle angle?
    Last edited by 06300CSRT8; 02-26-2019 at 07:16 AM.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=06300CSRT8;560735]IM confused - why are you TRYING to get full boost at part throttle? I spend many days tuning these cars to ride right on the edge of the mechanical bypass snapping shut and going into full boost, I would never tune a car to see full boost at part throttle, we target 3-4psi max as that is about max you can get before the bypass snaps shut.

    Obviously we treat a car with 25lb boost differently to one running 10lb.
    But even so, the airflow limitations will step in and slow things (airflow wise) on the way up to 70%ish throttle until it then goes WOT.
    So by messing around you can get it to be very linear all the way.
    But that also means you can get pretty much get/use full boost at 2000rpm with like 30-50% throttle as at that low rpm the engine doesn't have too
    much torque and if it is a manual or 8sp car it makes crushing hills in top gear fun.

    BTW. I used to try and hold off shutting the bypass but now do it differently.
    If you get the bypass closed earlier (0 kpa or sooner), the TB is not yet as open, less air is being fed to blower and it makes the transition easier to control.
    If you try to hold off on closing it, the blower tends to come on in a rush as it is pumping/bypassing more air and suddenly all that bypassed air now gets to the engine.
    I have found the standard bypass set ups on the blowers now seem to work flawlessly, no restrictors, no heavier/lighter springs etc.
    If you are running a lot of boost and you now get too much power too soon...you can always trim down power/rpm or DD or even NV etc.
    This usually needs to be done as everyone has generally dialled these up, but now you will have more power/boost available, they may need to come back.
    Last edited by Hemituna; 03-01-2019 at 06:12 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post

    BTW. I used to try and hold off shutting the bypass but now do it differently.
    If you get the bypass closed earlier (0 kpa or sooner), the TB is not yet as open, less air is being fed to blower and it makes the transition easier to control.
    If you try to hold off on closing it, the blower tends to come on in a rush as it is pumping/bypassing more air and suddenly all that bypassed air now gets to the engine.
    I have found the standard bypass set ups on the blowers now seem to work flawlessly, no restrictors, no heavier/lighter springs etc.
    If you are running a lot of boost and you now get too much power too soon...you can always trim down power/rpm or DD or even NV etc.
    This usually needs to be done as everyone has generally dialled these up, but now you will have more power/boost available, they may need to come back.
    I'm running a 13 RT - 6.2 block, HC TB, HC cam, Apache heads, headers, pushing over 14 psi. One thing I never had flutter until I jumped from the stock TB to the HC TB and it makes sense as it seems it may have been restricting the blower as you mention above. Over time, I corrected it slowly using your tips in this thread. One thing I notice is that by pulling back the airflow and relational tables to get things smooth, it really changes the values on the torque values. Is there a safe table in the torque calculation to adjust to bring those back up to closer to where the car really is? My concern is that telling the trans that you are only making 400 ft/lb of torque vs actually making 650 ft/lb, the torque management for the trans won't help to save you on shifts.
    2013 Dodge Challenger RT Plus - Shaker

  17. #37
    Having a similar issue with a 2010 Procharged 426 SRT Jeep. Stock 6.1 throttle body. The gain table doesn't exist and throttle torque source isn't available to log. You can see it here at 7:48-7:49 its weird you give it a little throttle and its fine then all of a sudden it jumps to 50% throttle with next to no pedal input. To be fair the timing is the flutter not the throttle, but the throttle jumping open doesn't make any sense and seems to be causing it. I've raped the pedal request/inverse tables trying to settle it down but nothing seems to help.


    srt procharged 10 jeep street jerky.hpl
    Last edited by UMSTuning; 07-25-2019 at 11:33 AM.

  18. #38
    Large throttle commands, need to rescale axis for more air then mess with throttle volts via logging until your happy with outcome.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelGardinier View Post
    Large throttle commands, need to rescale axis for more air then mess with throttle volts via logging until your happy with outcome.
    Oh hi lol