Newb needing help - MAF and VE tuning, can't find files / histogram

[Hotwire]

Not necessarily a newb, just have never really had to mess with MAF or VE tweaking. I've tried to follow the stickies, but they're outdated and I can't find the files needed to do the work.

I've got a 1964 Chevelle w/ 2003 LQ4, Elgin E1839P (220/224 112 LSA, .575" lift)cam, LS6 intake, 33lb injectors, truck DBW TB, truck MAF, longtube headers, custom "cold air" intake, etc etc. Pile of parts on a budget.

Needless to say my tune is out. It runs great, but fuel tables are off and it likes to stumble or oscillate at idle to the point it stalls.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just want to push in the clutch and come to a stop w/o stalling. Almost a safety hazard w/ hydroboost setup.

[jpierro79]

if you have never done a ve you shouldnt be tuning especially with a cam. Please dont be offended but you have a large milestone to conquer. You intake manifold volume for starters. You need injector data including all offset vs kpa vs voltage. You need to get rid of custom cold air unless it is the exact diameter of original. and thats just to get it started in the right direction. You have to build the histogram in the vcm scanner yourself. every car is different. you have to wire in a wide band.Without all of those things your not going to get it right. Please no offense but this is where you stand. Ive been a repair tech for 20 years and tuning is a different animal.

[Hotwire]

No offense taken, I am learning and want to know more about the software, so any help is appreciated. Thanks for posting, did you look at the tune? You mentioned the injectors, they're 33 lb flow rates in the tune.. I'm a newb to HPtuners, can figure out enough to get something running and going down the road, but now need to dig in.

I have injector data, I have changed the injector tune to match what I installed. CAI is 3.5" ($55 ebay silverado intake), MAF is screened, at the end of the CAI right after the air filter, so it's as straight a shot as I could give it.

I have AEM 30-4100 wideband sensors in both collectors, have the wideband AFR gauges in the dash, BUT have changed the output of the o2s to narrowband Nernst Cell and feed that into the ECM. Wideband accuracy in narrowband format. I'm able to tune WOT with no issues, sorry for not including that in the original post. Just drove 900 miles this weekend to a car event, averaged 19 mpg.. Wired up the cruise control in the TAC module and ran it for most of the trip as well.

My history, been wrenching on cars for 29 years have done a couple old school LT1 swaps in S10s, jeeps, and blazers (used LT1edit, CATS, and datamaster. LOVED VEmaster), last vehicle was a 02 Blazer w/ L33 swap, EMISSIONS LEGAL daily driver, started tuning it with LS1edit and moved to HPTuners after I learned about it. Did all the work and wiring myself, had a/c cruise control, and all gauges working, sold the blazer, guy flew from TX to NC on a one way flight, handed me cash and drove it home. Since that time he's ran it on the Texas Mile and is having all kinds of good times with it.

The stickies have a lot of help in them but most of them are outdated and deadends. I am educated, very willing to learn, just can't seem to find anything that I can sink my teeth into on the forum? I have to build a histogram in the scanner. OK, could you guide me or give directions on where to find the info? Where did you find how to do it? Thank you for your time.

My 64. Used a 03 silverado underhood fuse box, got rid of all the glass gauges, converted the headlight switch and dimmer to ground so they run the relays in the fuse box. Shoehorned the fuse box behind the gauge cluster, ECM is mounted over the glovebox. Using 04 trailblazer gauges, voltmeter doesn't work because that signal comes from the BCM, which I don't have at this time.

[Hotwire]

So, no help after telling me I shouldn't be tuning and not even looking over the files I posted? Appreciate the help, glad you weren't around when NASA got started.

If anyone is needing help like me, I've found this info that I will be trying to follow this weekend: http://www.silveradoss.com/forums/to...sing-hptuners/

I've also purchased and am reading through the Master EFI Tuner GM book by Dan Maslic.

[5FDP]

I'm not sure how they are outdated as they still work the same from 3.6 to 4.0 software.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...tarted-Threads

If you can't find the exact table just be smarter than the screen you are looking at. Use the navigator to plug in the table number you see on the screen or just type it in. Sure some of the locations have changed but the tables are the same still.

The AFR error for VE tuning works great once up and running. If you need to do MAF tuning, you just change a few of the parameters around and that's it. The same basics apply to both, you must disable all fuel trims and closed loop must be disabled when using the wideband error. Any corrections by the computer will screw up the data.

[Crysis]

Of topic but how did you get the gauges to work like that did you completely pulled off the harness or did you just pin every wire

[Hotwire]

I'm not sure how they are outdated as they still work the same from 3.6 to 4.0 software.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...tarted-Threads

If you can't find the exact table just be smarter than the screen you are looking at. Use the navigator to plug in the table number you see on the screen or just type it in. Sure some of the locations have changed but the tables are the same still.

The AFR error for VE tuning works great once up and running. If you need to do MAF tuning, you just change a few of the parameters around and that's it. The same basics apply to both, you must disable all fuel trims and closed loop must be disabled when using the wideband error. Any corrections by the computer will screw up the data.

Thank you for the reply, I was referring to the how-to's from this section: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...o-and-how-to-s

The MAF tuning threads are outdated with no files in them, leaves you hanging. Had no idea the other how-to's existed in the scanner section. I need to get out more often.. I'm also more of a visual guy unfortunately. A lot of the forum posts are a bit over my head as I'm stuck still trying to get my hands dirty in the software. Full family life leaves little time to study up on this with no in depth manual to bookmark and come back to. I used to know the ins and outs of the 94-95 LT1 ECMs, but I'm still getting a grasp on the P59. Think it's starting to click though, reading enough to understand what it's doing and what it's looking for. Thanks again.

Of topic but how did you get the gauges to work like that did you completely pulled off the harness or did you just pin every wire

I've luckily got a pull-a-part yard near me. I pulled the cluster and as much of the harness as I could. I wired it in when I was lengthening/shortening the wire bundles in the dash. Wired in the cluster lights, high beam indicator, turn signals, etc. The serial data takes up the bulk of the gauges, but as I said, volt meter is dead due to needing signal from the BCM. The fuel gauge is taking some tuning to get right, still unsure if the gauge is right or I have a bad stepper motor in the cluster. That again is one of those smarter than the page I'm looking at deals.

Here's a pic of when I first wired them in. After this I did a lot of clean up, zip tying, bundling, and split loom. I'd marked the extents of the needle sweeps so if I accidentally bumped them I could reset their position.

[QUA-HOON]

So, no help after telling me I shouldn't be tuning and not even looking over the files I posted? Appreciate the help, glad you weren't around when NASA got started.

If anyone is needing help like me, I've found this info that I will be trying to follow this weekend: http://www.silveradoss.com/forums/to...sing-hptuners/

I've also purchased and am reading through the Master EFI Tuner GM book by Dan Maslic.

Hi Hotwire -

I too found that guide and gave it a shot. I didn't have my wideband installed initally, but my eyes were watering with the car outside idleing the car was so rich. Maybe now I'll try this again with the wideband and a bit more hours under my belt messing with the program. I'll also attempt to try tuning the MAF.

I looked at your VE table and noticed you're running a lot less fuel than I am below 2000 RPM. I too am a noob, and am not sure how much is normal for how much cam we're running, but I would think you'd need more fuel 800 RPM and up to help correct your lean state.

I see you purchased the tuning book, if you find anything of use, please let me know. Back to internet scavenger mode.

[Hotwire]

I don't have a lean state?

[85K5Jake]

Side note*** Hotwire is that chevelle the red 4 dr I've seen on youtube?

[Hotwire]

Side note*** Hotwire is that chevelle the red 4 dr I've seen on youtube?

Possibly? Been a bit of a social media who're lately..

[85K5Jake]

It sure is!!! Man you built a sweet ride. I'm a fan. I just bought that Elgin cam for my lq9 swapped blazer today. I'm at work now, when I get home I'm gonna scope out your tune. I currently have a 228/232 .600 112 Lsa cam. It was a pain to tune the surge out of it but its almost gone now that I'm going to swap it out. I might be able to help with your issues.

[Crysis]

Thank you for the reply, I was referring to the how-to's from this section: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...o-and-how-to-s

The MAF tuning threads are outdated with no files in them, leaves you hanging. Had no idea the other how-to's existed in the scanner section. I need to get out more often.. I'm also more of a visual guy unfortunately. A lot of the forum posts are a bit over my head as I'm stuck still trying to get my hands dirty in the software. Full family life leaves little time to study up on this with no in depth manual to bookmark and come back to. I used to know the ins and outs of the 94-95 LT1 ECMs, but I'm still getting a grasp on the P59. Think it's starting to click though, reading enough to understand what it's doing and what it's looking for. Thanks again.



I've luckily got a pull-a-part yard near me. I pulled the cluster and as much of the harness as I could. I wired it in when I was lengthening/shortening the wire bundles in the dash. Wired in the cluster lights, high beam indicator, turn signals, etc. The serial data takes up the bulk of the gauges, but as I said, volt meter is dead due to needing signal from the BCM. The fuel gauge is taking some tuning to get right, still unsure if the gauge is right or I have a bad stepper motor in the cluster. That again is one of those smarter than the page I'm looking at deals.

Here's a pic of when I first wired them in. After this I did a lot of clean up, zip tying, bundling, and split loom. I'd marked the extents of the needle sweeps so if I accidentally bumped them I could reset their position.

Nice i might try to do that on one of my next project pull out as much of the harness as i can and use the factory gagues

[85K5Jake]

Did you ever idle tune this combo after the cam? if not search for the idle tuning guide by rinkrat on here, its pretty good. your VE table is a little choppy as is the spark tables, Base running airflow seems kinda high for a cammed engine. in the scan it looks like your adaptive idle isn't really kicking in thats why it surges and dies. I run a manual trans also and had to idle tune and keep tuning fuel and spark to get my surge to go away. Here is my current tune. the setup is LQ9, ported 317 heads, 228/232 .600 112 lsa cam, long tubes, ported throttle body and 44lb injectors. i tuned this at 7200 feet of elevation and it was a pain to get to here. i also borrowed a timing table from a 4.8L with a manual trans and made it my own after alot of testing and changes. VE tuned with a wideband best i could get. Running speed density so my MAF is failed @ 0hz. Have a look at the timing and VE tables in my tune this is the best it has ran so far and pull like a monster in a 6000lb K5.

[85K5Jake]

heres a couple links to follow. these are what i used to tune my idle and VE. the timing i just cobbled together until i ran good. http://michigansnowmobiler.com/hptun...ons%20rev2.pdf <---- VE guide.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-(w-pictures) <---- idle tuning guide.
i also adjusted my EOIT or end of injection timing so i wasn't blowing fuel out of the combustion chamber with the larger cam. as long as you know you cam specs you can plug them into this spreadsheet and adjust the injector timing. it improved my low end take off and clean up the fuel smell i had at idle.

[Hotwire]

It sure is!!! Man you built a sweet ride. I'm a fan. I just bought that Elgin cam for my lq9 swapped blazer today. I'm at work now, when I get home I'm gonna scope out your tune. I currently have a 228/232 .600 112 Lsa cam. It was a pain to tune the surge out of it but its almost gone now that I'm going to swap it out. I might be able to help with your issues.

Thanks man, I grew out of S10s and started looking for an old chevelle. Ended up with this one and had a huge learning curve on it. I hope you like the cam, it yanks my car down the road like no other all the way to 6200. Idle is an attention getter too.

Nice i might try to do that on one of my next project pull out as much of the harness as i can and use the factory gagues

It's not the cleanest look, I didn't do too well trimming the factory bezel to fit the gauges, it was already destroyed when I got it, but have a new one sitting in the trunk. The build was budget oriented, $27 gauges vs $800 autometer, win. At some point I'm going to try and separate the gauges and mount them to the factory bezel, but I'm more of a go person than show, so it'll probably be a while.

heres a couple links to follow. these are what i used to tune my idle and VE. the timing i just cobbled together until i ran good. http://michigansnowmobiler.com/hptun...ons%20rev2.pdf <---- VE guide.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-(w-pictures) <---- idle tuning guide.
i also adjusted my EOIT or end of injection timing so i wasn't blowing fuel out of the combustion chamber with the larger cam. as long as you know you cam specs you can plug them into this spreadsheet and adjust the injector timing. it improved my low end take off and clean up the fuel smell i had at idle.

Thank you, I greatly appreciate the links, this is what I've been needing! I just started piecing the tune together and got it running "decent", it'd fire right up, idle perfectly, AFRs were good everywhere even though LTFTs were out a bit. Just drove over 800 miles this past weekend, averaged 19 mpg. I'd just started trying to work on the VE table when I posted the tune above, no where near finished, just dabbling.

If you get bored, here's the chevelle build, I'm long winded, so get comfortable if you decide to jump in: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/142...t56-build.html

and FYI, I thought using the widebands as narrowbands was a good idea, it does help to keep the afrs in check, but it's pretty useless for datalogging WOT. I keep an eye on the gauge readouts during wot and the #s on the gauges are not correlating to the data captured during datalogging. I will be contacting AEM about it. (Besides everyone else telling me it wasn't a good idea..)

[85K5Jake]

I wired my wideband through my egr sensor, it has a built in offset for voltage. I'm not sure about wiring through the narrowband sensors, I haven't seen that method before. You might need to adjust your formula for the wideband math in the the scanner to dial it in.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

I wired my wideband through my egr sensor, it has a built in offset for voltage. I'm not sure about wiring through the narrowband sensors, I haven't seen that method before. You might need to adjust your formula for the wideband math in the the scanner to dial it in.

You're not running it this way but ill put the why in here for everyone in this thread.
you dont wire in through the narrow band because the ecu only can read on a 0-1 volt range on that signal input. anything higher than 1 volt can fry the internal circuitry.
there are options to output a 0-1 volt range on a wideband but the issue here is that you are condensing the readings for a 0-5 volt range into a 0-1 volt range which reduces to resolution of data down to 20% of what you would get out of the 0-5 volt range. It is highly recommended to not waste time with the 0-1 volt output because of this drastic loss in resolution.

as most already know you would wire your 0-5 volt signal in through the mpvi interface. when this isn't an option you can go through the egr signal as mentioned, or some people who disabled ac have used the high pressure switch signal in some other platforms. if the sensor feeds to the ecu and is capable of 0-5 volts then you can usually steal its signal wire for your wideband if you know you dont really need that sensor. Do a scanner pid/sensor search to make sure you can read that sensors voltage before you steal its signal line though. doesnt help if the scanner cant see it in the first place.

[85K5Jake]

Thanks for the info Cobalt. Maybe that's why I never seen that method.

[Hotwire]

Sorry, what I was saying, I've got AEM 30-4110 widebands in place of the narrowband sensors.

In P4 mode the output from the sensor is narrowband Nernst cell readings. The gauge displays the AFR, but outputs the narrowband signal that the ECM is looking for (correct 0-1V signal).

I needed o2 sensors for the car, the widebands were a couple dollars more than narrowbands, so I thought I'd give them a shot. Assuming the narrowband output was coming from a wideband sensor the end result would be accurate across the entire range. It is for the most part, but looking over my datalogs, the AFR gauge is showing 12.5:1 during wot, but the output I'm datalogging is showing ~.950mV.

If you look at page 11 of the instruction manual (P4 mode vs AFR), that's not even close.. https://www.aemelectronics.com/files...GO%20Gauge.pdf

*EDIT* I'm not recommending anyone to follow what I've done, BUT, it seems to be working. I want to correlate w/ dyno wideband at some point to check accuracy.