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Thread: Car is ignoring my torque table changes

  1. #21
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    Basically If you have done anything that can change your fuel rail pressure, or MAP pressure, you either need to put a sensor on it and correct the inferred logic values, take an educated guess, or copy someone else's tune hoping they did it right. Its always best to use knowns, known good MAF curve, known good injector data, ETC.

    Cams change MAP.
    FI changes MAP.
    Bigger injectors/ higher RPMs and more fuel demand can change fuel rail pressure.
    Return style and regulated rail pressure changes rail pressure, you wouldn't guess and set this with out a gauge.
    If you are at 8psi boost ~23PSi MAP, and are seeing 2.0 load, you either have error in your MAP(From SD) or rail pressure. Its not so bad as the ECU is being overly cautious as its farther down the tables than it should be. This can also go the opposite way which is more dangerous as the ECU is commanding timing for cylinder pressures thinking its getting .7-.8 load when its really getting to 1.05 load. This can lead to situations where you are getting 29* of borderline timing when your engine is actually only going to tolerate 25* before detonation.

    The fuel trims will correct the load, so if you get a manifold, intake tube leak, or any other think that can effect MAF frequency. You are not going to end up at a lower load and a dangerous situation. The problem I'm describing comes from people seeing fuel trims and just moving the MAF curve to get rid of the error when there is error in their inferred MAP or rail pressure they are not even looking for as they don't have the sensors and don't want to do the right thing and put sensors on the car. The stock SD does very well as long as the MAF curve is accurate giving it an accurate air mass and not compensating for the fuel side of things being wrong.

    .70 load just means the cylinder filled to 70% of Baro pressure. To do this you would need around 70% Baro as MAP. You are not going to get 70% in the cylinder when the MAP is only 50% baro, cylinder filling through the heads is just not that efficient on any engine. Also keep in mind airflow is driven by high to low pressure, with very slight dynamic airflow variance that you don't need to worry about as thats not the normal. You can say the intake tube will be a higher pressure then the manifold and the manifold will be higher than the cylinder. Pressure is then modified by compression and power stroke and it continues this trend through the exhaust. If you only get 70% in the cylinder when the MAP is 100%, it is possible but only at very low RPMs and very bad cylinder filling. As MAP gets above Baro into boost, the air is just moving slower and slower making the cylinder filling less and less efficient so assuming 100% cylinder filling is less and less likely the higher you go. Four valve engines do breath at high RPMs and high boost very well compared to two valve engines, but they are still governed by compressible gas physics.

  2. #22
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    I don't think the torque tables do anything but change the fuel & timing, and that can be changed by adjusting the MAF period for fuel, and timing by the tables, on fixed cam setups, on variable cam setups, this can be different.

  3. #23
    Tuner in Training OverNightPartsFromJapan's Avatar
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    OK this is all a lot to take in.

    I think what you're saying Murfie is that everyone is accustomed to bandaiding the tune by using the maf to get their desired AF ratio and changing the timing in the areas the car is using and assuming that the map data is just right. I know that is a very rough explanation, but if that is the case, I cant agree more. The problem with that is, there is very little information how to properly do anything with these cars other than change the maf period.

    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Basically If you have done anything that can change your fuel rail pressure, or MAP pressure, you either need to put a sensor on it and correct the inferred logic values, take an educated guess, or copy someone else's tune hoping they did it right. Its always best to use knowns, known good MAF curve, known good injector data, ETC.

    It actually surprises me that there are not options in the ecu logic to simply replace a lot of these inferred tables with sensors. I actually have several GM MAP sensors sitting around my house. The reason I have not installed one is I still do not know what to do once I get it installed because I am new to Fords. I did notice that there is an option in the MAP settings where it asks if a sensor is fitted. If I were to install a MAP and scale it correctly, couldn't the car ignore/correct inferred map related calculations and use the actual sensor values or has HPtuners not tapped into these options yet? I guess to make that statement a little clearer, why would I install a sensor then use it to correct inferred tables when it could just provide the real values to the next calculation, thus eliminating several inferred tables?

  4. #24
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    On the MAP sensor, simply wire into the HPTuners box & use it that way. I did it on mine, but still not sure if I had it scaled correctly, for my MAP sensor. HPTuners is very hard to configure a simple 0-5v sensor in their software, & nobody seems to be able to help setting it up. Most all I have seen are linear, so they are have a voltage range of .25-4.75v, and whatever MAP range they read, should be simple, but it is not.

  5. #25
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    Great info! Thank you, murfie and thank you Veeefour.

    I have a list of things I want to try next time I get some time to myself. I might make a post with my findings on SD and the system correlations if I find anything interesting.

  6. #26
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    On the MAP sensor, simply wire into the HPTuners box & use it that way. I did it on mine, but still not sure if I had it scaled correctly, for my MAP sensor. HPTuners is very hard to configure a simple 0-5v sensor in their software, & nobody seems to be able to help setting it up. Most all I have seen are linear, so they are have a voltage range of .25-4.75v, and whatever MAP range they read, should be simple, but it is not.


    Seriously?

    I'm thinking about upgrading to the pro version, just so I can log MAP and further refind my SD and VCT settings. I would be pretty pissed to spend that money and not be able to easily log a linear analog signal.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Seriously?

    I'm thinking about upgrading to the pro version, just so I can log-MAP and further refind my SD and VCT settings. I would be pretty pissed to spend that money and not be able to easily log a linear analog signal.
    You'd be surprised, HPT has a few preset slopes to use but good luck, if you want to set up your own sensor and dont, know the slope. Personally, I do as previously mentioned with a map sensor, it's very worth it! My main goal now is to thoroughly explore the multipliers and a few other parameters.

  8. #28
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txtailtorcher View Post
    You'd be surprised, HPT has a few preset slopes to use but good luck, if you want to set up your own sensor and dont, know the slope. Personally, I do as previously mentioned with a map sensor, it's very worth it! My main goal now is to thoroughly explore the multipliers and a few other parameters.


    I picked up an Aeroforce 3.5 bar MAP sensor. 0 - 4.9v range. Slope is 14. Intercept is around -14.

    Since I have an MPVI1-standard, my only option is to go pro is to upgrade to an MPVI2-pro.

    Alternatively, I could just log it for free with my nGauge. The drawback there, is that it can't read as many channels and the sampling rate is lower.

  9. #29
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    Make sure your sensor is reporting pressure in the absolute scale and not showing you boost positive and negative values for vacuum. Its MAP (manifold absolute pressure) anything else will not work. If the manufacture of the sensor can't give you the voltage conversion to pressure don't buy it. Most will give you a table, you can come up with coefficients for a equation from. Most 5v sensors are simply linear by design. Hook it to the interface throw the MVPI A/D input in a Math with the coefficients to convert volts to pressure and thats about it. If you didn't buy the MVPI pro interface, you should have. Sorry if you have to wait for the MVPI2 pro link interface connection it'll be out soon and im sure it will be great. Aftermarket external sensors polling are so much faster than any OBDii signal, so take that in to account when setting up graphs against other channels. your better off filling the graph with the external sensors data and having the slower channel as a axis values when you can.

  10. #30
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Make sure your sensor is reporting pressure in the absolute scale and not showing you boost positive and negative values for vacuum. Its MAP (manifold absolute pressure) anything else will not work. If the manufacture of the sensor can't give you the voltage conversion to pressure don't buy it. Most will give you a table, you can come up with coefficients for a equation from. Most 5v sensors are simply linear by design. Hook it to the interface throw the MVPI A/D input in a Math with the coefficients to convert volts to pressure and thats about it. If you didn't buy the MVPI pro interface, you should have. Sorry if you have to wait for the MVPI2 pro link interface connection it'll be out soon and im sure it will be great. Aftermarket external sensors polling are so much faster than any OBDii signal, so take that in to account when setting up graphs against other channels. your better off filling the graph with the external sensors data and having the slower channel as a axis values when you can.
    You can use your AC pressure sensor - VCM Scanner can log the AC sensor voltage. I did that on a few occasions and it works just fine. Just make sure to switch your AC off and remember not to use it.
    Last edited by veeefour; 11-20-2018 at 03:45 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Seriously?

    I'm thinking about upgrading to the pro version, just so I can log MAP and further refind my SD and VCT settings. I would be pretty pissed to spend that money and not be able to easily log a linear analog signal.
    Yes. All other ecu's & tuners I mess with you simply enter lower voltage, then higher voltage, then the sensor range from low to high, & roll. This is for a linear sensor, which all Bosch I use are. There's gotta be a way to do it easily in HPT, but I don't know what it is.

    I tuned my SD tables, no difference at all. Talking to some better Ford tuners then I, they say don't touch the SD tables, not needed at all. Mine seems to do fine with stock SD tables, so I put them back that way, & it does fine as I could ask for.

  12. #32
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Yes. All other ecu's & tuners I mess with you simply enter lower voltage, then higher voltage, then the sensor range from low to high, & roll. This is for a linear sensor, which all Bosch I use are. There's gotta be a way to do it easily in HPT, but I don't know what it is.

    I tuned my SD tables, no difference at all. Talking to some better Ford tuners then I, they say don't touch the SD tables, not needed at all. Mine seems to do fine with stock SD tables, so I put them back that way, & it does fine as I could ask for.


    Have you reached out to HPT support? I'm curious what they would say.

    I did not get my VCM suite until after the blower install; but I can tell you from my experience, the SD tables are way off for an 11psi PD blower. The chart shows my calculated MAP before and after tuning, compared to actual MAP. Correcting this (and for the other MPs I use) really improved fueling without touching the stock GT500 MAF curve:

    Calc MAP Tuning2.png

  13. #33
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    You can use your AC pressure sensor - VCM Scanner can log the AC sensor voltage. I did that on a few occasions and it works just fine. Just make sure to switch your AC off and remember not to use it.

    My gut says that there are unused PCM pins, tied to live channels that we could use permanently.

    For example, if we could dump a complete channel list before and after enabling [ECM] 44204 - MAP Sensor: Master enable/disable for MAP Sensor.. Does another channel show up? (after rescanning for supported channels) Could we then find that pin?

  14. #34
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    Yes, HPT support will only reply what is listed in the help section, so no help there.
    I'm sure there is math that'll work, probably simple too, once figured out. I took algebra, but that was 8th grade, so that learning doesn't serve me well anymore. Maybe some of you guys can figure out the math that'll work. There is an explanation of the 0-5v sensors, how to input that, but I can't see how to configure the pressure.

  15. #35
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Yes, HPT support will only reply what is listed in the help section, so no help there.
    I'm sure there is math that'll work, probably simple too, once figured out. I took algebra, but that was 8th grade, so that learning doesn't serve me well anymore. Maybe some of you guys can figure out the math that'll work. There is an explanation of the 0-5v sensors, how to input that, but I can't see how to configure the pressure.


    It should really just be voltage * [slope] + [offset].

    To figure that out from scratch, you need some way to bring it to an accurate, known pressure. Look at the voltage shown at atmospheric pressure, then at say 10 psi gauge pressure (above atmospheric).

    You will then have two points on the sensor curve (voltage, psi): (resting voltage V1, 0 psi), (V2, 10 psi). Let's say you are resting at 0.5V and reading 1.5V at 10 psi. Slope is psi2-psi1/V2-V1, so (10 - 0)/(1.5-0.5)=10. Plug that back into the equation for a line psi=(V)(slope)+offset... 0=(0.5)(10)+offset... then your offset is -5.

  16. #36
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    Not sure about all that, but here is all info needed in most setups I have used in the past.


    P1 -> 11 kPa at 0.25V
    P2 -> 307 kPa at 4.75V

    Enter both ends of voltage, then enter both ends of pressure, done.

    Here's a link to the sensor I use a lot on my builds, 3 BAR, but there are others too.
    https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pr...h186n32fs42981

  17. #37
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Not sure about all that, but here is all info needed in most setups I have used in the past.


    P1 -> 11 kPa at 0.25V
    P2 -> 307 kPa at 4.75V

    Enter both ends of voltage, then enter both ends of pressure, done.

    Here's a link to the sensor I use a lot on my builds, 3 BAR, but there are others too.
    https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pr...h186n32fs42981


    Right, you have two points, but not the equation of that line, which is what I described above.

    I'm not sure how HPT wants the sensor described, but since you seem to be struggling to get good results, this might be the reason.

    You can take the easy method and use Wolfram alpha to spit out your line equation using your two points:

    https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?...11)+(4.75,307)

    (output will be kPa, just like your input)


    MAP = 65.7778 *(voltage) - 5.44444

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    My gut says that there are unused PCM pins, tied to live channels that we could use permanently.

    For example, if we could dump a complete channel list before and after enabling [ECM] 44204 - MAP Sensor: Master enable/disable for MAP Sensor.. Does another channel show up? (after rescanning for supported channels) Could we then find that pin?
    I'm hoping something can be done with this. I'm currently using the AC sensor input. I'm going to try turning on the Fuel rail temp setting in SCT and see what that does as far as available parameters, that pin I know and isn't used. Hopefully support will work with us on getting something like that going for MAP/FP/ Fuel temp etc.
    2011 Mustang GT TT A6
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Right, you have two points, but not the equation of that line, which is what I described above.

    I'm not sure how HPT wants the sensor described, but since you seem to be struggling to get good results, this might be the reason.

    You can take the easy method and use Wolfram alpha to spit out your line equation using your two points:

    https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?...11)+(4.75,307)

    (output will be kPa, just like your input)


    MAP = 65.7778 *(voltage) - 5.44444
    Looks like some graph points in geometry.
    What is needed is the actual formula to enter into HPT for a 0-5v linear sensor, or at least I think that's what HPT needs.
    Not sure what is needed to get there. Be nice to know though, there's shitloads of 0-5v sensors we could wire in, if someone knew the formulas for differing sensors. They say in their help section to let them know about different sensors, they'll add common ones, but they don't seem to want to, don't blame them, they busy working on new vehicles.

  20. #40
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    Bosch 3.5 BAR MAP.MathParameter.xml


    Attach that sensor to MVPI 1, or which eveqr and change the Math. Add it as a channel, and use this math you will get a KPA pressure reading as accurate as bmotorsports provides from bosch. There's other sensors out there that provide much better data points and you can get more accurate curves. No slow OBDii, just quick raw data.
    Last edited by murfie; 11-20-2018 at 11:00 PM.