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Thread: Cammed, ported Gen3 5.7 Hemi - What after VE Tables?

  1. #1

    Cammed, ported Gen3 5.7 Hemi - What after VE Tables?

    Hello Guys,
    Recently i've adjusted VE Tables, so LTFT on both banks oscillating around +/-5%.

    What should be the next step?
    Please share you suggestions. Of course i'm looking for better performance.

  2. #2
    Tuner in Training
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    Spark tables, cam tuning transmission tuning

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by CannaGeneticsBank View Post
    Spark tables, cam tuning transmission tuning
    I've done some research, so it's best to invest to wideband sensor now.

  4. #4
    Can someone please post his WOT spark Table, and PE?
    Engine 5.7 Hemi gen3 - non VVT.

    Just for comparision, and help.

  5. #5
    Tuner in Training
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    Yes you wideband is a crucial tool to ensute proper fuel and air mixture at wide open throttle. Just copying and pasting someone elses spark tables could be detrimental to your vehicle. So what I would suggest is get the wideband and make sure your air fuel ratio is on point once that is done. Do some testing and have the scanner running with your wideband to and see performance from intial run. From there you can tune the spark table in the WOT range by adjust the aprk 1 to degrees up or down at a time. Going down your pulling power away going up your giving more power. With that said you need to watch knock retard if your care about longevity of your internals. While knock retard is tollerated even from manufacturers stand point no knoc retard is best. If your experiencing knoc retard over and over and AFR is on point then timing needs to be turned back a degree or two at a time until you see no knock retard or you ok with the knock retard thats occuring. Keep in mind when knock retard occurs the engin is pulling performance from you regardless so if you do it in the first place to experience no knock retard why not do it and save your engine the small damage every knock causes. You def do not want to see knock retard over 5 degrees that should be the max limit

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CannaGeneticsBank View Post
    Yes you wideband is a crucial tool to ensute proper fuel and air mixture at wide open throttle. Just copying and pasting someone elses spark tables could be detrimental to your vehicle. So what I would suggest is get the wideband and make sure your air fuel ratio is on point once that is done. Do some testing and have the scanner running with your wideband to and see performance from intial run. From there you can tune the spark table in the WOT range by adjust the aprk 1 to degrees up or down at a time. Going down your pulling power away going up your giving more power. With that said you need to watch knock retard if your care about longevity of your internals. While knock retard is tollerated even from manufacturers stand point no knoc retard is best. If your experiencing knoc retard over and over and AFR is on point then timing needs to be turned back a degree or two at a time until you see no knock retard or you ok with the knock retard thats occuring. Keep in mind when knock retard occurs the engin is pulling performance from you regardless so if you do it in the first place to experience no knock retard why not do it and save your engine the small damage every knock causes. You def do not want to see knock retard over 5 degrees that should be the max limit
    Apreciate much, your answer.
    Yes, more need a suggestion like this than copy&paste solutions.

    What i am curious is what real timing on can n/a Hemi hold during WOT (average numbers). Is it more 20-21 on 95-100kPa MAP, and 5krpm+ (12,5 AFR), or like a stock map have 23-26+ (11,3 AFR).
    And yes, i have to watch knock retard, but my NGC3 PCM doesn't provide Knock sensors read .
    I can only compare current timing vs table in VCM Editor. Base on that i can assume that knock has occured. What if there will be no knock, an i'll go over 30* advance?
    Last edited by Pablito[PL]; 03-11-2019 at 03:41 AM.

  7. #7
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    Well the way the manufacturer soes thing is to give the best all around droving ability. But the way your talking it doesnt seemnlike you fully understand how timing works. Before changing anything else i urge you to read about spark timing. The reason being is that just because your timing is at 30 degrees doesnt mean your pulling the most power. In fact in this situation you would want to turn timing back at wide open thottle. As going ro high in timing will also rob power from you. Please either take one of the tuning course or begin diving into how performance engines work. Woth out knowing this stuff with out a wideband and while knock sensors arent the most important thing you dont want to tune wide open throttle unless you have a way to detect knock. So you should invest into a Plex Knock Monitor as well.

  8. #8
    Potential Tuner
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    hello everyone im new to this form.... got 5.7 stock heads and bottom end....just got done putting in a cam 219/226 112lsa 108 ICL 525/525....anyway where do i need to go to get to idle and driveability justed out to get to idle in park or then go d visa versa...thanks

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CannaGeneticsBank View Post
    Well the way the manufacturer soes thing is to give the best all around droving ability. But the way your talking it doesnt seemnlike you fully understand how timing works. Before changing anything else i urge you to read about spark timing. The reason being is that just because your timing is at 30 degrees doesnt mean your pulling the most power. In fact in this situation you would want to turn timing back at wide open thottle. As going ro high in timing will also rob power from you. Please either take one of the tuning course or begin diving into how performance engines work. Woth out knowing this stuff with out a wideband and while knock sensors arent the most important thing you dont want to tune wide open throttle unless you have a way to detect knock. So you should invest into a Plex Knock Monitor as well.
    Yes,
    I'm not confident to keep timing as high as manufactuer sees it.
    That's why i pulled out a bit to see what will happen.
    After change from 26* to 22* at ~6kRPM acceleration doesnt change much.
    Perfectly understand differences between WOT spark table, and Part Throttle spark table.

    Got wide band from couple of days, but haven't played with it yet.
    Just got one run to see how it work. So AFR was consistent 12,3 until 6krpm, when it dropped to 13,4.

    As you kindly mentioned, i need more knowledge.
    Last edited by Pablito[PL]; 03-20-2019 at 03:36 AM.

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner
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    Low to mid 20s is about max timing these engines like to see NA.

    https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar...ost-1971799435
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post563199

    https://www.hpacademy.com/forum/gene...th-no-base-map
    "most engines will be fine on 8 psi of boost with around 15 degrees of timing, so i will put that in, around 25 degrees in part throttle, etc. Then i will start doing steady state tuning, starting with the lowest rpm i can do (usually around 1500 rpm). I will tune that row of fueling, and then the timing in that row according to my torque readout on the dyno. When it stops increasing when adding timing, thats mbt. I will use that row to get an educated idea of what the rest of the part throttle timing will look like, and adjust it a bit. i will then move on to the next rpm, continually adjusting the next row to what my dyno shows in the previous row. Once i get to full throttle, i will do a partial pull, maybe to 5000 rpm, just to see how the engine is going to act according to my fueling/timing numbers. From that point on, i will creep up to mbt, and pull a few degrees out depending on fuel. Thats just a brief summary of it. You cant really do it without a dyno. You can street tune it, but youll never know if you are truly at mbt, or just staying away from the knock threshold."

  11. #11
    Hello,
    Nobody's talking about MBT table, so i will.
    It is essential to raise MBT spark values in particle cells that we are considering to change in WOT table.
    Otherwise we will change WOT spark with no effect.