Gen3 Coyote commanding as rich as 0.72, COT disabled

[deanm11]

I'm tuning my 2020 Mustang GT A10, little by little as a go "Full bolt-on" and eventually E85.

In my stock WOT log, I got expected .82-.83 at the richest.

Attached, you can see I hit as rich as 0.72. COT is disabled. Spark and fuel are bone stock otherwise. Mechanical changes since stock pull: Borla S-type cat-back, Velossa ram-air duct. (also 3.55 rear, rear suspension upgrades)


What tables could be combining to command this rich now ?


Separately, the car now stalls once in a while when coming to a stop in Drive. Ideas on hunting that down? I'm very happy with the way the car runs otherwise.
I have a ported throttle body on the shelf and have half a mind to install that and tweak the tune and this issue combined with that upgrade. The porter claims "no tune" but ....

[aaronson]

I'm tuning my 2020 Mustang GT A10, little by little as a go "Full bolt-on" and eventually E85.

In my stock WOT log, I got expected .82-.83 at the richest.

Attached, you can see I hit as rich as 0.72. COT is disabled. Spark and fuel are bone stock otherwise. Mechanical changes since stock pull: Borla S-type cat-back, Velossa ram-air duct. (also 3.55 rear, rear suspension upgrades)


What tables could be combining to command this rich now ?


Separately, the car now stalls once in a while when coming to a stop in Drive. Ideas on hunting that down? I'm very happy with the way the car runs otherwise.
I have a ported throttle body on the shelf and have half a mind to install that and tweak the tune and this issue combined with that upgrade. The porter claims "no tune" but ....

My first 2 cents is return the ported throttle, unless your boosted or a CJ setup running an oval throttle body they?re a waist of money and a head ache. Secondly log some wot pulls once your engine and trans is up to temperature. Add fuel source, spark source and torque source to your log. It will tell you what table it?s pulling spark from, fuel from and torque request from. That should help single out why it?s going into CAT over temp protection or whatever. If you still have CATs on your car I?d recommend leaving it on anyways unless you would like to melt them. Again DO NOT Install that throttle body. It?s going to cause a bunch of issues.

[superman07]

Are you hitting a combustion stability limit somewhere? It looked like the only fueling table with a lambda value that low.

[deanm11]

Thank you for the thoughts. I will work on getting a log with the three sources aaronson mentions.

Dean

[Justinjor]

I'm tuning my 2020 Mustang GT A10, little by little as a go "Full bolt-on" and eventually E85.

In my stock WOT log, I got expected .82-.83 at the richest.

Attached, you can see I hit as rich as 0.72. COT is disabled. Spark and fuel are bone stock otherwise. Mechanical changes since stock pull: Borla S-type cat-back, Velossa ram-air duct. (also 3.55 rear, rear suspension upgrades)


What tables could be combining to command this rich now ?


Separately, the car now stalls once in a while when coming to a stop in Drive. Ideas on hunting that down? I'm very happy with the way the car runs otherwise.
I have a ported throttle body on the shelf and have half a mind to install that and tweak the tune and this issue combined with that upgrade. The porter claims "no tune" but ....

You still have 02 sensor temp protection and exhaust manifold temp protection turned on. That's probably your issue.

Best I can tell, this is essentially a stock file with some limits raised. No changes to fueling or timing tables or anything else that would cause your stalling issues.

I suspect your ram-air mod is your issue. The maf sensor does not like turbulent air flowing over it, disrupting the flow.

As far as your datalogging, you'll want to log a handful of things to help guide you in the right direction. Anything with "source" in the name is a good place to start.

Best of luck!

[deanm11]

Justinjor, thank you for pointing out those two additional protections. Revised tune and logs attached. This was performed on a closed private course.

- The commanded AF still briefly goes below 0.80 but its not nearly as bad as that first read. I'm satisfied until I return to fully tune PE / WOT fuel
- I'm surprised how long the Fuel Source and VCT schedule mode hung in Stoich and Fuel Economy Drive. I see the delay tables and the pedal position required but it seems those were in a no delay zone
- I've not included idle conditions in the log but I think I solved the idle. At the link below VCT wildness and flopping between mapped points was discussed. People were reporting idle issues on stock or nearly stock cars like me, at least automatics in drive. I made Optimal Stability array be all 'mapped point 1' and it idled perfectly. Similar to descriptions by others in the other post, my previous idle failure only occurred when warm.

Thank you all for your input. I enjoy learning and doing this "myself"

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...018-Mustang-GT

[Justinjor]

Justinjor, thank you for pointing out those two additional protections. Revised tune and logs attached. This was performed on a closed private course.

- The commanded AF still briefly goes below 0.80 but its not nearly as bad as that first read. I'm satisfied until I return to fully tune PE / WOT fuel
- I'm surprised how long the Fuel Source and VCT schedule mode hung in Stoich and Fuel Economy Drive. I see the delay tables and the pedal position required but it seems those were in a no delay zone
- I've not included idle conditions in the log but I think I solved the idle. At the link below VCT wildness and flopping between mapped points was discussed. People were reporting idle issues on stock or nearly stock cars like me, at least automatics in drive. I made Optimal Stability array be all mapped point it idled perfectly. Similar to descriptions in the log, the previous idle failure only occurred when warm.

Thank you all for your input. I enjoy learning and doing this "myself"

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...018-Mustang-GT

I'd suspect the very cold temps have something to do with it. If you look at the min Lambda under combustion stability you see it can command as rich as .72. I didn't dig deep into the logic as to what allows the Comp Stab limit tables to be used but I'd suspect that is part of it.

You're also seeing 52lb/min airflow @7200 rpm. That's some serious air for a stock car. For comparison, my 2020 just put down 440whp bone stock with just E85 and my custom tuning on my dyno and I saw 48.5 lb/min

[deanm11]

I'd suspect the very cold temps have something to do with it. If you look at the min Lambda under combustion stability you see it can command as rich as .72. I didn't dig deep into the logic as to what allows the Comp Stab limit tables to be used but I'd suspect that is part of it.

You're also seeing 52lb/min airflow @7200 rpm. That's some serious air for a stock car. For comparison, my 2020 just put down 440whp bone stock with just E85 and my custom tuning on my dyno and I saw 48.5 lb/min

======================

Thank you for the further thoughts and comments. Yes, I don't think I could hope for any higher MAF readings. The superb cold air has something to do with it but still.. So I'm kind of expecting 450 SAE rwhp given how strong it seems. Stock fuel/spark tune, 93 octane and more or less only the cat-back mod. Street logs before the cat-back were ~1.5lb/min lower so this is one of those rare/car combos where there is some real hp in the cat-back. Before purchase, I had seen 1 or 2 dynos on the s-type with 10-15hp,and even in mid-rpms so thus my selection of it. Pretty cleanly on the way to 500rwhp when I get the rest of the "full bolt-on" complete on E85. I plan to run only dedicated E85 tune rather than flex, as I'd rather not give up anything in a flex tune and I'll test my fuel every time.

It does seem the highest dynos and performance on the Gen3s have been very recent cars so it's like Ford has just been building them better ? They've got to be more than 460 crank hp when they're routinely 420-440 rwhp stock.

[Justinjor]

======================

Thank you for the further thoughts and comments. Yes, I don't think I could hope for any higher MAF readings. The superb cold air has something to do with it but still.. So I'm kind of expecting 450 SAE rwhp given how strong it seems. Stock fuel/spark tune, 93 octane and more or less only the cat-back mod. Street logs before the cat-back were ~1.5lb/min lower so this is one of those rare/car combos where there is some real hp in the cat-back. Before purchase, I had seen 1 or 2 dynos on the s-type with 10-15hp,and even in mid-rpms so thus my selection of it. Pretty cleanly on the way to 500rwhp when I get the rest of the "full bolt-on" complete on E85. I plan to run only dedicated E85 tune rather than flex, as I'd rather not give up anything in a flex tune and I'll test my fuel every time.

It does seem the highest dynos and performance on the Gen3s have been very recent cars so it's like Ford has just been building them better ? They've got to be more than 460 crank hp when they're routinely 420-440 rwhp stock.

Mine is an 11/2020 build so no telling what advancements they've made to the gen3 since inception, and definitely since 2018.

My turbos just showed up so I won't be n/a much longer

[aaronson]

======================

Thank you for the further thoughts and comments. Yes, I don't think I could hope for any higher MAF readings. The superb cold air has something to do with it but still.. So I'm kind of expecting 450 SAE rwhp given how strong it seems. Stock fuel/spark tune, 93 octane and more or less only the cat-back mod. Street logs before the cat-back were ~1.5lb/min lower so this is one of those rare/car combos where there is some real hp in the cat-back. Before purchase, I had seen 1 or 2 dynos on the s-type with 10-15hp,and even in mid-rpms so thus my selection of it. Pretty cleanly on the way to 500rwhp when I get the rest of the "full bolt-on" complete on E85. I plan to run only dedicated E85 tune rather than flex, as I'd rather not give up anything in a flex tune and I'll test my fuel every time.

It does seem the highest dynos and performance on the Gen3s have been very recent cars so it's like Ford has just been building them better ? They've got to be more than 460 crank hp when they're routinely 420-440 rwhp stock.

Just a little hint when you start going into tuning the PE, .82 is the lowest you need to go really .85 is sufficient, I particularly like to run slightly rich to keep the tune ?safer? but yeah only time you need to go below .82 is with boost or a dry shot of nitrous which I honestly would never do unless the motor was built for it

[LastPlace]

deanm11, Do you have cats?

[deanm11]

I am running cats. I will reconsider some cat overtemp, however, my car is highly like to not see more than 10 sec of WOT at a time. If I were to road course or otherwise change driving habits, I would be concerned about COT. But would be happy to be educated if it is believed I'm at risk for even this driving pattern. I just like the idea I'm not at risk of COT messing with my with very brief WOT bursts.

[aaronson]

I am running cats. I will reconsider some cat overtemp, however, my car is highly like to not see more than 10 sec of WOT at a time. If I were to road course or otherwise change driving habits, I would be concerned about COT. But would be happy to be educated if it is believed I'm at risk for even this driving pattern. I just like the idea I'm not at risk of COT messing with my with very brief WOT bursts.

Issue is the cats are designed to heat up and stay hot to burn off and catalyze the emissions. So even if you were to do 1 pull from 60-130 it?s going to make them heat up to around 1500 degrees and then they stay hot for a bit so if you do another pull it?s going to get more hot and go into cat OT. Just something you gotta deal with to keep the cats from melting. I luckily live in a non emissions county so when my customers 2020 was having the same issue I told him get free flowing exhaust to fix the issue

[rryanfla]

Justin, good to see you on the boards. You have a 2020 TT build? Shit, gonna be a record setter.

[Justinjor]

Justin, good to see you on the boards. You have a 2020 TT build? Shit, gonna be a record setter.

Yessir, done a handful of them for customers and loved them so much I bought one for the shop. 2020 with the A10. Turbo kit is already in house. Just need time to get everything sorted. Shop is swamped currently so it's on the backburner until I can find time to do it all. Fuel system, opg/tg, suspension, turbo kit, etc.

I've already swapped over to E85 and made 440whp on my dyno. The gen3s are such impressive motors. The DI is incredible.

[rryanfla]

I am sure that will be a beast and set some records. Anyone local to Tampa. I can absolutely recommend Jordan Performance for install, etc etc. Justin knows his shit.

[Ethan5.019]

I've been reading through a good bit of threads here about the Ford tuning. I have a 2019 f150 with the coyote. I want to start learning and messing with my stock file so I can also tune for my own bolt ons. Any advice and suggestions are welcome. Thanks again.

[deanm11]

What bolt-ons are you looking at doing ?

If you are changing the intake tract substantially, MAF curve may need re-calibrating. Cat-back exhaust, drop-in air filter, no tuning necessary.

Aside from that, there's possibly 10hp in more optimal WOT fuel and ignition timing. The way this ECM advances timing when there is no knock, it is not far from optimum timing without tuning at all.

If you are willing to accept some risk to your trans, there can be some gains in reducing torque management.

[LastPlace]

2015+ Coyote F150 don’t have maf tuning they are speed density.

[LastPlace]

I've been reading through a good bit of threads here about the Ford tuning. I have a 2019 f150 with the coyote. I want to start learning and messing with my stock file so I can also tune for my own bolt ons. Any advice and suggestions are welcome. Thanks again.

1. Create a new post with your stock read and what your trying to do.
2. Try your best never to post off-topic stuff in someone else’s thread (like your request for info unrelated to the OP post), it adds zero value.