6-71 blown Hemi going full lean on throttle tip-in

[Mattechperf]

Its following exactly to your Engine->Torque Management->Driver Demand -> Power % request which maps TPS voltage versus power output.

I would cut the 0.9, 1.5, and 2.0 fields by 30% and see how you like it. Go too far and itll feel dead.

I made the corrections to the Power % request table, as well as the inverse adjustment to the Expected Pedal table.
It definitely helped narrow the variances between pedal, TPS, and Commanded TPS. However, the main problem still remains where it just stalls when the TPS goes up. You can see in the logs where the pedal goes past 50%, the RPM stalls, dips, and then recovers after the pedal is released. It's like an ignition cut.
The RPM where it cuts seems not to be related to the actual RPM as much as throttle position or rate of throttle increase.

I have a few error codes. I'll have to check the numbers, but there are two for the upstream O2 sensors (currently disconnected), the vapor purge solenoid (disconnected), and the fuel level sensor (disconnected because of fuel cell).
I wonder if the low fuel level signal causes a "limp mode" of sort.

A-Bom_LSFO_007e_05_Tip in Lean Out.hpl

MattL 2006 300c ABom_LSFO_007e.hpt

[spoolboy]

The fueling is a boost referenced return style set at 4.5 PSI.
Attachment 86933

Is that a typo, meaning 45psi?

[Mattechperf]

Is that a typo, meaning 45psi?

Dah! Yes, a typo.
It's supposed to be 43.50 PSI.

[06300CSRT8]

Looks like you are getting a really bad lean spike when your mechanical secondary throttle body is opening. This is going to be very hard to tune out, as youll need to create a similar increase to airflow in your Airflow->Electronic Throttle-> Airflow, Small, and Large Range tables.

[06300CSRT8]

Also raise up your Engine Diag->General->Airflow Max RPM and Airflow Max TPS values, you are exceeding those quite a bit .

[06300CSRT8]

Also raise up your Trans->Torque Management->General-> Max Engine Torque.

[Mattechperf]

I was doing some playing right before I saw the posts from 06300CSRT8. I'm going to try his suggestions right now because I'm about to drive off a cliff with this thing.

So, I think it may be something fuel related and MAP related as well. When the RPMs break up, it happens when MAP is over 100 kPa, regardless of RPM.
I'm using the 80# Ford FI114991 LU80 injectors. I brought the fuel pressure back to the OEM 58 psi.
It seems that everyone who posts injector data for these has different numbers.
I never seem to see Pulse Width go over 6ms and rarely about 5ms. The Duty Cycle peaks around 8.5%.
Here's my latest files and a screen shot at one of the RPM cuts.

A-Bom_LSFO_007f_10.JPG

MattL 2006 300c ABom_LSFO_007h.hpt
A-Bom_LSFO_007f_10.hpl

[Mattechperf]

Looks like you are getting a really bad lean spike when your mechanical secondary throttle body is opening. This is going to be very hard to tune out, as youll need to create a similar increase to airflow in your Airflow->Electronic Throttle-> Airflow, Small, and Large Range tables.

I was thinking about that as well. I've disconnected the secondary TB for this testing and got the same RPM lean cut.
I've done some mapping of the TPS voltage vs percentage of total throttle opening between the two. I believe I can interpolate the data to match, however I keep seeing conflicted opinions of how the airflow data in the tables relates to actual airflow data that would happen on the flow bench.

Also, I'm a bit confused on the relationship between the airflow table and the small vs large range. I created a spreadsheet to interpolate info from a sample table (known tune) and give me adjusted values to dump into mine. Perhaps you can have a look at it tell me if I'm in the ballpark.

Desired Throttle Range Interpolator.xlsx

[Mattechperf]

Also raise up your Trans->Torque Management->General-> Max Engine Torque.

Good call. I noticed mine has a Trans Maximum Allowable Torque vs Gear where the limit is set at 560 ft/lb in 1st and 2nd while 3rd, 4th, and 5th are at 3687.
Will this cause issues when I actually start driving?

[B00STJUNKY]

Mattechperf, I am genuinely interested in seeing your build progress. I am not necessarily what I would call "an expert" at converting injector data from one format to another. That being said, I figured I'd take a crack at converting the data from here; which from the research I've done seems to be the Siemens supplied data for those Ford 80 lbs injectors that match the part number you supplied; to fit the Mopar injector data format.

Now, mind you, I took some liberties with smoothing the transition from Low Slope to High Slope so that there wasn't such a sudden change in linearity. That may or may not prove to have been wise. Only a test run will tell. But, I rescaled everything for 58 psi, including the injector voltage offset values, and I feel like this may prove somewhat useful in testing some theories at the very least. So, without further adieu, here's what I came up with.

For your Injector Pulsewidth scale, I didn't alter any of the values you were using. So, you shouldn't need to change Inj PW for either of your tables. Just keep in mind that I'm displaying fuel mass units in milligrams. If you aren't seeing it that way, it's as simple as clicking the unit next to the text field to the right of the = + X options.

Fuel Mass vs Injector Pulse Width
Inj PW - Fuel Mass (mg)

0 ------ 0
0.104 - 1.625
0.2 ---- 3.125
0.304 - 4.734375
0.4 ---- 6.046875
0.504 - 7.3125
0.6 ---- 8.40625
0.704 - 9.609375
0.904 - 11.84375
1.2 ---- 14.875
1.8 ---- 21.015625
2.8 ---- 31.671875
10 ----- 113.09375
15 ----- 169.65625

And then, of course, you'll want to set Injector Pulse Width vs Fuel Mass to be the exact inverse of this one.

Injector Pulsewidth Offset Table
Volts - ms

5.0 -- 4.4
6.0 -- 3.424
7.0 -- 2.664
8.0 -- 2.16
10.0 - 1.568
12.0 - 1.24
14.0 - 0.976
15.8 - 0.784

Also, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, but if you have a rising rate fuel pressure system (ie. fuel pressure rises at a 1:1 ratio for every pound of boost that the manifold sees), you'll want to set the Vacuum Multiplier to a static 1.0 across the board (this table is found under the [Engine] [Fuel] [Open Loop / Base] tab). If not, and fuel pressure is static, just leave it as it is.

Edit: I just went back in the thread and saw that you do in fact have a 1:1 RRFPR in the fuel system. So, in that case, and assuming it sees both vacuum and boost, I would suggest setting that Vacuum Multiplier table to 1.0 across the board.

Good luck, and hopefully this proves useful in some way.

[Mattechperf]

Thanks BOOSTJUNKY! You're a master.
That makes me feel a lot better. The calculated numbers I got weren't too far off from yours. I didn't think about smoothing for the transition though.
My offsets are a bit wonky too.

This is what I calculated.
Inj PW - Fuel Mass (mg)
0.000---0.000
0.104---1.239
0.200---2.383
0.304---3.623
0.400---4.767
0.504---6.006
0.600---7.150
0.704---8.390
0.904---10.774
1.200---14.3018
1.800---21.4527
2.800---33.3709
10.00---119.1820
15.00---178.7731

I'll give yours a try. And, I did find and adjust that vacuum multiplier.

[06300CSRT8]

Whats the deal with your front o2 sensors not being hooked up? Also do you have a wideband logging at this point? The one in your earlier log wasn't reading, it was pegged rich. Either of those would solve this issue in a matter of one good log. I am still leaning towards you hitting an airflow limit since I see your rpms and throttle closing. You need to try to log pedal voltage, 02 sensors and wideband, and your torque convertor (slip rpm and lock status).

[06300CSRT8]

Also all of your logs so far show 0 mph, are you just free revving this thing in neutral or actually trying to drive it? I wouldn't spend much time on free revving tuning, its going to result in some really wonky VE adjustments. Now that its idling and running, drive it and log it.

[Mattechperf]

Whats the deal with your front o2 sensors not being hooked up? Also do you have a wideband logging at this point? The one in your earlier log wasn't reading, it was pegged rich. Either of those would solve this issue in a matter of one good log. I am still leaning towards you hitting an airflow limit since I see your rpms and throttle closing. You need to try to log pedal voltage, 02 sensors and wideband, and your torque convertor (slip rpm and lock status).

I have it locked into open loop using the Closed Loop Enable - Coolant Temp set to 376 degrees.
I'm working under the mindset that ironing out everything first while in open loop is best. However, I'm always open to suggestions and better practices.
I do have a wide-band on there. It's definitely on the last log I posted. Actually, there's two. I used an older Innovate LC-1 because I had to send my PLX Devices unit back for warranty repair. But it's hooked up now.
The latest log shows the PLX in Lambda on analog input MPVI.2 and the LC-1 set to AFR on MPVI.1.

Pedal position shows on my log using Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor in volts.
If you can see those PIDs, you'll see that I'm letting off the pedal and don't believe it's the PCM closing the throttle.
From everything I've seen so far, it looks like it's the fuel that being limited. However, I'm not sure of this is a direct action or triggered by something else.

Also all of your logs so far show 0 mph, are you just free revving this thing in neutral or actually trying to drive it? I wouldn't spend much time on free revving tuning, its going to result in some really wonky VE adjustments. Now that its idling and running, drive it and log it.

Correct, this has all been happening while in park in my driveway. I hadn't put insurance on it yet since it was acting so strange, and I hadn't ruled out some sort of engine damage or mechanical fault.
Plus, with the blower, it hits the 100 kPa mark pretty quickly and easily, which made it buck and pope horribly. I was afraid of doing damage.
I'm with you though and I'll move toward getting some road data shortly.

[spoolboy]

Good luck. I keep reading this hoping to see you post "That did it!" after someone else posts a possible solution.

[B00STJUNKY]

I have it locked into open loop using the Closed Loop Enable - Coolant Temp set to 376 degrees.
I'm working under the mindset that ironing out everything first while in open loop is best. However, I'm always open to suggestions and better practices.
I do have a wide-band on there. It's definitely on the last log I posted. Actually, there's two. I used an older Innovate LC-1 because I had to send my PLX Devices unit back for warranty repair. But it's hooked up now.
The latest log shows the PLX in Lambda on analog input MPVI.2 and the LC-1 set to AFR on MPVI.1.

Pedal position shows on my log using Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor in volts.
If you can see those PIDs, you'll see that I'm letting off the pedal and don't believe it's the PCM closing the throttle.
From everything I've seen so far, it looks like it's the fuel that being limited. However, I'm not sure of this is a direct action or triggered by something else.



Correct, this has all been happening while in park in my driveway. I hadn't put insurance on it yet since it was acting so strange, and I hadn't ruled out some sort of engine damage or mechanical fault.
Plus, with the blower, it hits the 100 kPa mark pretty quickly and easily, which made it buck and pope horribly. I was afraid of doing damage.
I'm with you though and I'll move toward getting some road data shortly.

Just a heads up, the "coolant temp CL enable" is in reference to the rear (downstream) O2 sensors. That value doesn't affect upstream sensor feedback. If you truly want to go that route (disabling all O2 feedback including upstream), I think setting the upstream O2 sensors to disabled will do it. Otherwise, I'd suggest just plugging the upstream sensors in and using tye STFT and LTFT values as a guide to dialing in VE for closed loop conditions.

Edit: Please ignore this post. For whatever reason, I seem to have never really taken notice to the fact that there was an "upstream o2 feedback coolant temp enable" parameter (considering I always tune in closed loop), or perhaps I have been recalling the tables available in the editor from a time when upstream o2 sensor feedback didn't have a "coolant temp enable" parameter defined. The way you have it set up in your calibration will do as you intended it to.

[06300CSRT8]

Just a heads up, the "coolant temp CL enable" is in reference to the rear (downstream) O2 sensors. That value doesn't affect upstream sensor feedback. If you truly want to go that route (disabling all O2 feedback including upstream), I think setting the upstream O2 sensors to disabled will do it. Otherwise, I'd suggest just plugging the upstream sensors in and using tye STFT and LTFT values as a guide to dialing in VE for closed loop conditions.

Better how he has it setup. With the high temp setting, he can still see the millivolts reading off the 02 sensors if he wants, but the ECU will never make any STFT or LTFT changes as it never goes into Closed Loop.

Setting the sensors to disabled will mean they have a blank millivolt reading in the log AS WELL as never going into closed loop.

Only downside to the high temp setting is after 3 or 4 startups itll pop a DTC for never reaching the coolant temp to enable closed loop.

[Mattechperf]

Just a heads up, the "coolant temp CL enable" is in reference to the rear (downstream) O2 sensors. That value doesn't affect upstream sensor feedback. If you truly want to go that route (disabling all O2 feedback including upstream), I think setting the upstream O2 sensors to disabled will do it. Otherwise, I'd suggest just plugging the upstream sensors in and using tye STFT and LTFT values as a guide to dialing in VE for closed loop conditions.

Ahhh, dammit. I had that all wrong. Well shit. That means I've got something wrong with my O2's then. Because, they're plugged in.
I hope I didn't do something stupid like plug my rears back into the front spots. I've done dumber things.

[06300CSRT8]

Ahhh, dammit. I had that all wrong. Well shit. That means I've got something wrong with my O2's then. Because, they're plugged in.
I hope I didn't do something stupid like plug my rears back into the front spots. I've done dumber things.

No you're fine the way you have it.

[B00STJUNKY]

Better how he has it setup. With the high temp setting, he can still see the millivolts reading off the 02 sensors if he wants, but the ECU will never make any STFT or LTFT changes as it never goes into Closed Loop.

Setting the sensors to disabled will mean they have a blank millivolt reading in the log AS WELL as never going into closed loop.

Only downside to the high temp setting is after 3 or 4 startups itll pop a DTC for never reaching the coolant temp to enable closed loop.

Ahhh, dammit. I had that all wrong. Well shit. That means I've got something wrong with my O2's then. Because, they're plugged in.
I hope I didn't do something stupid like plug my rears back into the front spots. I've done dumber things.

No you're fine the way you have it.

Please ignore my previous post regarding "downstream coolant temp enable". For whatever reason, I seem to have never really taken notice to the fact that there was an "upstream o2 feedback coolant temp enable" parameter (considering I always tune in closed loop, I could have easily overlooked it), or perhaps I have been recalling the tables available in the editor from a time when upstream o2 sensor feedback didn't have a "coolant temp enable" parameter defined. The way you have it set up in your calibration will do as you intended it to.