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Thread: tuning virtual volumetric efficentcy table

  1. #41
    I don’t have my laptop ha dy to look at your setup. I ran into the same issue when I did my turbo set up. Are you logging the same axis values for your histogram as you have for the VVE table?

  2. #42
    Advanced Tuner Ghostnotes's Avatar
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    Exact same,

    Same rpm breakpoints and same Pressure ratio breakpoints. I'm going to do a video later and post it up. If it's me, it's something probably obvious to everybody esle and I'm stuck on stupid......
    I always tune VVE....
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  3. #43
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    To Ghostnotes: Same issue. 13 2.0 GM turbo. I complained about this VVE calculation issue before and just got the same response- special calc by %. I believe HP tuners math is off, but one can't modify what baked into their software. I think HP needs to figure it out. Bottom line - don't trust their software.
    Last edited by DGS; 06-11-2019 at 02:35 PM.

  4. #44
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    This comes from a 40 + year tech in this business with massage electrical, electronic, an computer experience.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostnotes View Post
    One thing i just now noticed....

    I'm running a 3 BAR MAP so i set my VE table accordingly. If I set it to a 1 BAR map the problem goes away but does me no good since I'm boosted.

    What am i missing???
    It sounds to me that the baro might be updating when you get into boost. Since the VVE table is pressure ratio (map/baro) you where say at a .5 at idle before, after you get into boost your at a .3. Does that make sense?

    I've done more modded Gen 5's in SD than not. The MAF only tunes with a lot of blowers especially leave a lot on the table for driveablity. I run into occasional problems though for instance.

    1. There is a pressure ratio limit that HPTuners limits the max value to 1. You can override this and it must be done to get into boost on most OS's.
    2. I've had a couple that would not stop updating the barometer. After you get into boost it will stay at 1.3 bar or so. Changing the map sensor config fixes this on most but not all. The MAF / Baro breakout harness doesn't always fix it either. I had the baro for the maf hanging in the engine bay and it would still update to 1.2bar after getting into boost.
    3. Cruise control doesn't work. I've had HPTuners had a cruise control patch to several different OS's now to fix this.
    4. I had a 18 ZL1 that did not want to run SD no matter what I did. It had a pressure ratio cap when the maf was failed and the normal constant to change it wouldn't work. There must be something still hidden.
    5. It's not really practical to do a VVE tune with VVT. You can rough it in but good luck getting the tables where you want it to be 0- even 10 degrees of cam angle. Not much of a issue. VVT has a hard time properly controlling the cam in Gen 5's anyway. They should all be locked out in any build IMHO.
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  6. #46
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    The baro will typically adjust at WOT.

  7. #47
    Advanced Tuner Ghostnotes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin View Post
    It sounds to me that the baro might be updating when you get into boost. Since the VVE table is pressure ratio (map/baro) you where say at a .5 at idle before, after you get into boost your at a .3. Does that make sense?

    I've done more modded Gen 5's in SD than not. The MAF only tunes with a lot of blowers especially leave a lot on the table for driveablity. I run into occasional problems though for instance.

    1. There is a pressure ratio limit that HPTuners limits the max value to 1. You can override this and it must be done to get into boost on most OS's.
    2. I've had a couple that would not stop updating the barometer. After you get into boost it will stay at 1.3 bar or so. Changing the map sensor config fixes this on most but not all. The MAF / Baro breakout harness doesn't always fix it either. I had the baro for the maf hanging in the engine bay and it would still update to 1.2bar after getting into boost.
    3. Cruise control doesn't work. I've had HPTuners had a cruise control patch to several different OS's now to fix this.
    4. I had a 18 ZL1 that did not want to run SD no matter what I did. It had a pressure ratio cap when the maf was failed and the normal constant to change it wouldn't work. There must be something still hidden.
    5. It's not really practical to do a VVE tune with VVT. You can rough it in but good luck getting the tables where you want it to be 0- even 10 degrees of cam angle. Not much of a issue. VVT has a hard time properly controlling the cam in Gen 5's anyway. They should all be locked out in any build IMHO.
    Thanks for replying. I just got back form an out of town job and will look into it. My cam is locked so I'm not messing with the overall camshaft angles. I would assume that to be correct since it does not move. I have rescaled my MAP to 3 bar in the characteristics but have left the MAP estimation alone(I would think this should match the MAP scaling as in sensor range and calibrated range...) With my setup i get about 5.2 psi boost MAP/BARO( I understand this will be off) although it is correct according to my setup. My pullies are about as slow as you can go at this point.How do you override it,some kind of offset?
    How can you tell if you have a pressure ratio cap?


    The MAF tune is actually pretty good and stable. No stumbling or surging. Running about 17* WOT and idles well hot and cold. Fuel trims are less than 2% all the way to PE. My torque model seems to be pretty good. My Driver demand axle stays above my axle torque right up to the point where my injectors start running out and my Max eng torque stays above my engine torque all the time and stay paralell. I'm 100% sure more can be had from a pro/dyno tune but i would be willing to bet not much more. Power wise, it's no good on street tires below 3rd gear or 40mph.

    I have 2 issues with completeing my tune

    The first is fueling which is completely doable, the other seems like you said to be an HPT issue. They have been quiet on the issue but im sure if and when enough people complain they will "look into it".
    Last edited by Ghostnotes; 06-15-2019 at 04:58 PM.
    I always tune VVE....
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  8. #48
    Advanced Tuner Ghostnotes's Avatar
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    At this point I trust my ears,eyes seat of the pants etc. after making adjustments.
    I always tune VVE....
    2016 C7 M7 Z51
    Callies ultra billet crank
    Callies ultra billet rods
    Diamond pistons
    Jhonson high speed lifters
    Ported and polished headwork
    Custom cam
    YSi-V7

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin View Post
    It sounds to me that the baro might be updating when you get into boost. Since the VVE table is pressure ratio (map/baro) you where say at a .5 at idle before, after you get into boost your at a .3. Does that make sense?

    I've done more modded Gen 5's in SD than not. The MAF only tunes with a lot of blowers especially leave a lot on the table for driveablity. I run into occasional problems though for instance.

    1. There is a pressure ratio limit that HPTuners limits the max value to 1. You can override this and it must be done to get into boost on most OS's.
    2. I've had a couple that would not stop updating the barometer. After you get into boost it will stay at 1.3 bar or so. Changing the map sensor config fixes this on most but not all.
    How are you overriding #1
    What MAP config is fixing #2
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbilko View Post
    You sound like the guy to ask where I might find a guide for VVE/MAF tuning the E78. Got any suggestions on a beginner's guide? Thanks
    https://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_ed...vanced_e78.htm

  11. #51
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    I'm considered a smart guy in my circles but perhaps not smart enough. What am I missing? I see nothing in that link that clues me in on how to tune my MAF to a larger intake tube.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    It's under Maths - Predefined -- Pressure

    you need to have MAP Hi Res and Baro logging in the channels
    Higgs Boson

    You sound like the guy to ask where I might find a guide for VVE/MAF tuning the E78. Got any suggestions on a beginner's guide? Thanks

  13. #53
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbilko View Post
    I'm considered a smart guy in my circles but perhaps not smart enough. What am I missing? I see nothing in that link that clues me in on how to tune my MAF to a larger intake tube.
    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbilko View Post
    Higgs Boson

    You sound like the guy to ask where I might find a guide for VVE/MAF tuning the E78. Got any suggestions on a beginner's guide? Thanks
    How to tune MAF and Speed Density is info from the GenIII days, you should read the threads and stickies in that forum.
    How to tune Virtual VE/SD is info from the GenIV days, you should ready the threads and stickies in that forum.

    If you like books and videos, google Greg Banish.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    bad data in, bad data out. set up those boundaries and axis' properly and dont smooth it. if you're still having trouble with it you can copy paste your error by zone, calculate, then the next zone, calculate, etc.
    Ok what is this boundary stuff, because that negative thing its a pain in the ass, if i try to take 5% off from the idle area it goes crazy negative numbers and i have to go back into the VE coefficient tables and undo all changes and start over, i have gotten great results on the gen 4 tuning the VVE part, but that crazy calculations on the GEN 5 makes me not want to touch it.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mJolnir View Post
    Ok what is this boundary stuff, because that negative thing its a pain in the ass, if i try to take 5% off from the idle area it goes crazy negative numbers and i have to go back into the VE coefficient tables and undo all changes and start over, i have gotten great results on the gen 4 tuning the VVE part, but that crazy calculations on the GEN 5 makes me not want to touch it.
    I have also found if you copy paste coefficients in the coefficients table, you have to extend the decimal range to 10 or 15 in length to find the trailing decimal. I don't know if this is a glitch or what but every once in a while if I copy coefficient tables some cells are still off by .00000000000000001 or something and this would cause crazy spiked in the VVE table. Again, this could have just been an older Beta version issue but I started just building two tunes. One with all of the changes I wanted minus the VVE changes, and then I would make VVE changes and if I had to start over I would just load the file before rather than trying to copy values over.

    As for boundaries, check the little box on the side to show boundaries.
    Last edited by TriPinTaZ; 08-16-2019 at 04:47 AM.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ View Post
    I have also found if you copy paste coefficients in the coefficients table, you have to extend the decimal range to 10 or 15 in length to find the trailing decimal. I don't know if this is a glitch or what but every once in a while if I copy coefficient tables some cells are still off by .00000000000000001 or something and this would cause crazy spiked in the VVE table. Again, this could have just been an older Beta version issue but I started just building two tunes. One with all of the changes I wanted minus the VVE changes, and then I would make VVE changes and if I had to start over I would just load the file before rather than trying to copy values over.

    As for boundaries, check the little box on the side to show boundaries.

    Gen V SD and MAF tuning is different than all others in certain areas of the tune. Also, think about what the boundary areas correlate to. Idle, Cruise, Passing, WOT? - make sure your car is within these areas or modify the boundary to relate to your vehicle especially on modified ones. Lean spikes? Also, if you don't want the editor to change your good parameters, multiply the entire area by .000001%

    Coefficients dictate certain things as well and that's about all I'm going to say on this subject. It keeps me busy fixing tunes for people.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbilko View Post
    I'm considered a smart guy in my circles but perhaps not smart enough. What am I missing? I see nothing in that link that clues me in on how to tune my MAF to a larger intake tube.
    You asked for a beginners guide so I pointed you to a link that I thought was a good read for beginners. I understand you are looking for a specific tuning criteria but was just trying to give you a good read as a beginner.
    I am no expert but that link has plenty of good info in it. Since you are considered smart in your circles I will let you continue your search for good information on your own. It is out there. Good luck.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtbilko View Post
    I'm considered a smart guy in my circles but perhaps not smart enough. What am I missing? I see nothing in that link that clues me in on how to tune my MAF to a larger intake tube.
    I don't know if you ever got an answer, but if you are moving the MAF from a 2.75" tube to a 3" tube the MAF will read close to the difference in area of the end of the tube. In this case about 18%. so 12012 Hz will equal 28 lbs instead of 24 lbs, more or less, that's why you have to adjust from there.
    PS I'm poor at math, and new to tuning.

  19. #59
    you tune a larger tube just like normal maf tuning. wideband error or LTFT+STFT error

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin View Post
    It sounds to me that the baro might be updating when you get into boost. Since the VVE table is pressure ratio (map/baro) you where say at a .5 at idle before, after you get into boost your at a .3. Does that make sense?

    I've done more modded Gen 5's in SD than not. The MAF only tunes with a lot of blowers especially leave a lot on the table for driveablity. I run into occasional problems though for instance.

    1. There is a pressure ratio limit that HPTuners limits the max value to 1. You can override this and it must be done to get into boost on most OS's.
    2. I've had a couple that would not stop updating the barometer. After you get into boost it will stay at 1.3 bar or so. Changing the map sensor config fixes this on most but not all. The MAF / Baro breakout harness doesn't always fix it either. I had the baro for the maf hanging in the engine bay and it would still update to 1.2bar after getting into boost.
    3. Cruise control doesn't work. I've had HPTuners had a cruise control patch to several different OS's now to fix this.
    4. I had a 18 ZL1 that did not want to run SD no matter what I did. It had a pressure ratio cap when the maf was failed and the normal constant to change it wouldn't work. There must be something still hidden.
    5. It's not really practical to do a VVE tune with VVT. You can rough it in but good luck getting the tables where you want it to be 0- even 10 degrees of cam angle. Not much of a issue. VVT has a hard time properly controlling the cam in Gen 5's anyway. They should all be locked out in any build IMHO.
    There is a setting for maximum pressure ratio when MAF is failed out that maxes at 1:1, you cannot tune maf and map separately on the new SS/ZL1 etc because of this, I even had issues with a manifold only SS when attempting to fail out the maf sensor, you will be met with limp mode every pull quite quickly. There are also traction control issues that arise on decel if you turn the DFCO off, because the delivered torque is higher than expected.

    I have yet to find solutions to these issues.