WOT Tip In Knock Retard, need help!

[CannaGeneticsBank]

Alright, So im running through the Tuning Schools guide. Before I can actually test I need to find why the Knock Retard is kicking in. From there suggestions in the book is if it begins low in the Tip In adjust the PE Enrichment-Enrichement Rate-FA Incr up by .0001 - .0002 at a time. Well the difference between the Log marked 2nd and the one marked 3rd is the 2nd Log hade the setting of PE-ER-FA Incr to .0008 and the Third log is following the attached tune at .0010. The knock retard isn't changing at all. Any suggestions, guidance, or reading suggestions would all be appreciated.

[Alshuwaihi]

did u run it with the base tune or the stock tune and log maybe the problem before the tune
one of the problems i faced that the car cat-back was touching the body and the car read it as a knock in the same area of ur car
and what is the fuel ratio when the knock happened ?
ur wot table is strange !

[Alshuwaihi]

i found few stock ram 2010 file and all of them the FA incr start with 0.0010 so go above it
and fix the wot and base spark table and start from the beginning
base dodge ram 2010.hpt

[CannaGeneticsBank]

I ha to raise FA Incr to .0090 to stop the knocking. I ve followed the books on the tables and Tuning School looked over the file somewhat. All is good at the moment. Tomorrow i can actually test WOT to redline and see how she runs. See if im getting proper AFR on the wide band. Then i will gointo the ANN tuning portion of everything. I may try the speed density tables out as well.

[Blue Bee]

You still have burst knock tables with timing in them (which isn't a bad thing) and LT side looks higher than stock...? So of course it will pull timing with each tip-in.

[CannaGeneticsBank]

Thank you for notifying me of this i will take a look at those.

[Homer]

If you look at DS 93 octane tune, they usually halve the timing in those tables.

[CannaGeneticsBank]

I will look at it as well

[CannaGeneticsBank]

Ok for anyone interested. The problem was my Pull Width. They were to short. So setting up the EQ Err Graph and a couple others courtesy of The Tuning School I was able to adjust the Pulse Width to eliminate all the knock. Thank you to everyone who made suggestions. It actually helped me learn a lot more. So supposedly many automakers tune there engines with a some degree of Knock Retard as acceptable. This is on totally stock cars. Searching the Internet GM Technicians and Other Heads of Automakers consider riding the Knock Retard Limit completely normal. I was not able to find any information as to why this acceptable. Some are saying that this No Knock is Only Acceptable is something of a myth. I don't know how true this is but figured I would add this to the thread. Maybe someone here at HPTuners that is an Actual Auto Engineer or Mechanic at least not just a tuner can chime in and give a reason as to why knock is acceptable or not.

[Blue Bee]

Your Pulse width? What was it just to lean? To lean for the timing? As for your other question, knock isn't acceptable but they know it's going to happen as one of the most important aspects for the tune isn't controlled...fuel. Yea, at the factory they use top shelf fuel but in the real world that fuel is few and far between. They are shooting for max performance and MBT of course is an "engineered" MBT (stock engine) so they rely on sensitive knock sensors to dial it back for crappy fuel, hot days, etc. You will see the PCM wanting to work it's way up to MBT timing but falls short due to fuel limits. Of course they don't want to hinder the tune/performance by just lowering timing so it's always good with the worst possible fuel and runs no better with good fuel. Really what they are saying is there is an acceptable amount based on today's quality of fuels and the set limits of max timing that can be pulled by PCM. Almost every single Hemi I've had on the dyno is pulling timing, but the important part is it may put it back in a tank of fuel later. So in short knock isn't acceptable, but must be accounted for and remember, technically it's not knocking if it's pulling timing, well hopefully. Take a stock 6.4, fill it up with 89 octane, get it nice and warm on the dyno and make nice long loaded pull. You will see PCM work it's way up to the -14 KR limit and then you will hear it ping. That's when you learn your fuel isn't acceptable.

[CannaGeneticsBank]

Your Pulse width? What was it just to lean? To lean for the timing? As for your other question, knock isn't acceptable but they know it's going to happen as one of the most important aspects for the tune isn't controlled...fuel. Yea, at the factory they use top shelf fuel but in the real world that fuel is few and far between. They are shooting for max performance and MBT of course is an "engineered" MBT (stock engine) so they rely on sensitive knock sensors to dial it back for crappy fuel, hot days, etc. You will see the PCM wanting to work it's way up to MBT timing but falls short due to fuel limits. Of course they don't want to hinder the tune/performance by just lowering timing so it's always good with the worst possible fuel and runs no better with good fuel. Really what they are saying is there is an acceptable amount based on today's quality of fuels and the set limits of max timing that can be pulled by PCM. Almost every single Hemi I've had on the dyno is pulling timing, but the important part is it may put it back in a tank of fuel later. So in short knock isn't acceptable, but must be accounted for and remember, technically it's not knocking if it's pulling timing, well hopefully. Take a stock 6.4, fill it up with 89 octane, get it nice and warm on the dyno and make nice long loaded pull. You will see PCM work it's way up to the -14 KR limit and then you will hear it ping. That's when you learn your fuel isn't acceptable.

Thank you for all that information.

So yes it was just not enough fuel. Let me give some background on my Truck. I bought it at 150000, it was owned by an Ex Swat Officer. The Truck ran great but did feel like everyone says these rams do stock. Sluggish off the line etc.. So from my original charts before tuning to now, I'm pulling around 320 lbs of torque max at like 5300 RPM. So when I started tuning Bank 1 was always lean as it always had a lot more air then bank 2. I assumed this is ok because obviously bank one is the 1st bank the air reaches it will absolutely have a high air volume compared to the second bank. So looking over my newer charts the fueling was alway like .012 grams off of where it should be. My knock retard was maybe 4 - 5 degrees. Now I have it to 0. I think my problem is Getting the EQ Error Chart to show good values for me is hard. I do not have a dyno near me, and no where I can do some of the tests you should be doing for the EQ Error. So many times I had to sit at lights and such which drastically changes the pulse width value errors. So I went to each pulse width where knock retard was happening and up the pulse width by .01 - .02 ms where ever there was the knock retard until it went away. No I really need to get to a dyno to really get good EQ Error readings as my Trims still are hitting the 7 - 10%

[Blue Bee]

You can always go to Fuel--> open loop/Base and "mass to be delivered" and increase just bank 1. It seems inherently lean.

**edited, I saw it's a 2010...no NN

[CannaGeneticsBank]

It does have a neural network but thats all fixed now