Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: 6R80 Upshift Pressure adjustments.

  1. #1
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    2

    6R80 Upshift Pressure adjustments.

    2014 Mustang Strategy, I am looking at doing adjustments to tighten up my 1,2,3 shifts. I can log gear, sol A,B,C,D etc. and can see what solenoid is being commanded on and off with each shift but the table to adjust is not clear to me which setting is for what element. I assume 1-2 might mean 1 to 2 shift but what does the N, M and A mean?

    shift tables.jpg

  2. #2
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    43
    I believe n is neutral, I once though A stood for automatic and M was manual mode but that doesn't make sense as there would be almost no adjustment for most shifts in automatic. I now thing 1A-2M is a 1-2 shift under 3mph and 1m-2m is above 3. This is based on a thread where Murfie posted a lot about the operation of the 6r80. The way I firmed up my shifts was to up the oncoming and off going pressure. I did up the oncoming more but I'm not sure what is optimal. You also will need to reduce your adaptive slip times as well otherwise over time the TCM will reduce pressure to show them down.

  3. #3
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    2
    That helps

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by CKrueg View Post
    I believe n is neutral, I once though A stood for automatic and M was manual mode but that doesn't make sense as there would be almost no adjustment for most shifts in automatic. I now thing 1A-2M is a 1-2 shift under 3mph and 1m-2m is above 3. This is based on a thread where Murfie posted a lot about the operation of the 6r80. The way I firmed up my shifts was to up the oncoming and off going pressure. I did up the oncoming more but I'm not sure what is optimal. You also will need to reduce your adaptive slip times as well otherwise over time the TCM will reduce pressure to show them down.
    Exactly, as there is a D clutch working together with a sprag under 3mph.

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    1,393
    Just to add a small bit to this, D clutch can also work the over drive clutch pack. E solenoid is an On/Off not a VFS like the others. It basically determines if D is working the Low/reverse clutch pack or the over drive clutch pack in 4,5, and 6. Incase you are wondering where to look when tuning the 3-4 or other high speed shifts.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  6. #6
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Just to add a small bit to this, D clutch can also work the over drive clutch pack. E solenoid is an On/Off not a VFS like the others. It basically determines if D is working the Low/reverse clutch pack or the over drive clutch pack in 4,5, and 6. Incase you are wondering where to look when tuning the 3-4 or other high speed shifts.
    Does this mean when adjusting element E boost time and pressure, it is actually element D being adjusted? Also when one increases off going shift pressure tables, does that increase holding capacity like higher boost pressure, or is that increasing the pressure disengaging the off going clutch, ie making it let go faster?

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    273
    Quote Originally Posted by CKrueg View Post
    Does this mean when adjusting element E boost time and pressure, it is actually element D being adjusted? Also when one increases off going shift pressure tables, does that increase holding capacity like higher boost pressure, or is that increasing the pressure disengaging the off going clutch, ie making it let go faster?
    No you are thinking of it backwards...

    SS 'D' modulates either Element D or E depending on if SS 'E' is ON or OFF. Overall, all they are doing here is making the VFS Solenoid D work for 2 Elements (clutch packs) instead of one.

    If SS E=OFF, SS D controls Element D (P, R, N/1 till 3mph)
    If SS E=ON, SS D controls Element E (4th, 5th, 6th)

    From the solenoid perspective however adjusting element D OR E is actually adjusting Solenoid D, and it only matters if studying the Datalog to see what 'D' is doing as the only gears SS D aren't used in is 2nd and 3rd!
    2014 Mustang GT Premium. 4C & Borla Exhaust
    "Don't fix it if it ain't broken"

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    1,393
    Blackbolt22 explained it, basically you don't need to log E, just log solenoid D and know when its controlling low/reverse clutch or the over drive clutch. Adjustments in D or E tables will be seen in D from a log.

    boost pressure, offgoing, oncoming, ect. only apply during a shift. Look to them when you get flares, drags, delays, etc.
    Holding pressures are determined under your general max/ base pressure. Both are highly dependent on what your ECU thinks engine brake torque is, base pressure being a bit more critical. If you have EBT way off like half what you are really making or double what you are really making, transmission operations will not work as they should. This is most peoples number one issue with tuning the transmission, they want to ignore what they have wrong on the engine side, and continue "correcting" tables in the transmission calibration to make them work. You get the engine side right and the ecu will just correctly control the transmission.

    When you are trying to improve transmission shifts, your main goal would be to determine what is slipping and how much, it could be from normal or abnormal operations of the TC, TCC, the gears clutches inside the transmission, etc. Increasing gear clutch holding pressure to minimize TC slip isn't going to work obviously, and it can lead to poor shifts and general operation of the transmission, just like not tuning your ecu to know the rough estimate of engine brake torque. You want to log engine RPM, turbine/input shaft speed, and OSS, determine the ratio between each and determine some desired ratio or a max/min they should be at or between, to determine what is slipping. Now for instance say you monitor input shaft and OSS while in second gear, and you determine the ratio between them is varying more than what your second gear ratio actually should be, you can say a clutch is slipping, but is it A or C? You don't really have any way of telling as both are responsible. You also may not be able to increase the pressure enough to hold the torque thats being transferred through the gear. They are under rated, but the stock clutches of a 6R80 are rated at 800Nm or 590Ftlbs, which isn't hard to get to. Same goes for the 10R80.

    You can do more advanced things with logs like calculate your acceleration of these speeds to determine if your clutches are properly timed. The goal being, to make sure you are not just getting what feels like the fastest/ firmest shift, but also isn't actually slowing the momentum of the entire car down. This is what can happen when you have clutches fighting instead of working together. For shifts that take half a second, you don't want 2/5 of that slowing momentum down just to produce a firm/fast feeling shift.

    Most will find tuning the engine based on torque values, scale where necessary, and you will get perfectly acceptable results. This is most likely why there are no books written on the subject, just short chapters in books about tuning the engine. It is also open loop, you make a change, you log, and see if the change did what you wanted, it doesnt always happen as you set in the tables due to physical limitations. There is no warning you would have been causing damage, it can just happen. Ford actually has a specific solenoid calibration based on flow benching for each solenoid body as they can all flow slightly different. HPT doesn't reflect this, just like the engine strategy, we are looking at an interpretation template, Things can get lost in interpretation, Just keep all that in mind as you try to make small adjustments.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Blackbolt22 explained it, basically you don't need to log E, just log solenoid D and know when its controlling low/reverse clutch or the over drive clutch. Adjustments in D or E tables will be seen in D from a log.

    boost pressure, offgoing, oncoming, ect. only apply during a shift. Look to them when you get flares, drags, delays, etc.
    Holding pressures are determined under your general max/ base pressure. Both are highly dependent on what your ECU thinks engine brake torque is, base pressure being a bit more critical. If you have EBT way off like half what you are really making or double what you are really making, transmission operations will not work as they should. This is most peoples number one issue with tuning the transmission, they want to ignore what they have wrong on the engine side, and continue "correcting" tables in the transmission calibration to make them work. You get the engine side right and the ecu will just correctly control the transmission.

    When you are trying to improve transmission shifts, your main goal would be to determine what is slipping and how much, it could be from normal or abnormal operations of the TC, TCC, the gears clutches inside the transmission, etc. Increasing gear clutch holding pressure to minimize TC slip isn't going to work obviously, and it can lead to poor shifts and general operation of the transmission, just like not tuning your ecu to know the rough estimate of engine brake torque. You want to log engine RPM, turbine/input shaft speed, and OSS, determine the ratio between each and determine some desired ratio or a max/min they should be at or between, to determine what is slipping. Now for instance say you monitor input shaft and OSS while in second gear, and you determine the ratio between them is varying more than what your second gear ratio actually should be, you can say a clutch is slipping, but is it A or C? You don't really have any way of telling as both are responsible. You also may not be able to increase the pressure enough to hold the torque thats being transferred through the gear. They are under rated, but the stock clutches of a 6R80 are rated at 800Nm or 590Ftlbs, which isn't hard to get to. Same goes for the 10R80.

    You can do more advanced things with logs like calculate your acceleration of these speeds to determine if your clutches are properly timed. The goal being, to make sure you are not just getting what feels like the fastest/ firmest shift, but also isn't actually slowing the momentum of the entire car down. This is what can happen when you have clutches fighting instead of working together. For shifts that take half a second, you don't want 2/5 of that slowing momentum down just to produce a firm/fast feeling shift.

    Most will find tuning the engine based on torque values, scale where necessary, and you will get perfectly acceptable results. This is most likely why there are no books written on the subject, just short chapters in books about tuning the engine. It is also open loop, you make a change, you log, and see if the change did what you wanted, it doesnt always happen as you set in the tables due to physical limitations. There is no warning you would have been causing damage, it can just happen. Ford actually has a specific solenoid calibration based on flow benching for each solenoid body as they can all flow slightly different. HPT doesn't reflect this, just like the engine strategy, we are looking at an interpretation template, Things can get lost in interpretation, Just keep all that in mind as you try to make small adjustments.
    Ford oh Ford, our dear Ford. 5 USD line pressure sensor would save us lot of trouble, same with SD and 5 USD MAP sensor, same with fuel pressure and yet another 5 USD sensor. Everything is inferred in those cars...

    Sometimes I have a feeling it's not about money, it seems they just don't really wan't us to tune these vehicles...

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    1,393
    Oh the other thing thats super important is fluid level. Any slight air bubbles in the system can mess everything up. They are very sensitive to the procedure on how you fill them, what you fill them with, and how much you fill them. You have to complete filling it at temp, while running with the fill hole right next to the heat of the exhaust/cat, just after taking it for a drive. Repeat that a few times until the level stabilizes, don't over fill it, not fun, but very important for proper operation.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman