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Thread: Hellcat Whipple Large Oval Data

  1. #1
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    Hellcat Whipple Large Oval Data

    I know this is like the holy grail of information but curious if anyone has something to share for me. Car runs OK on base Hellcat throttle body data. But feels a little lazy in response to pedal input and has a higher than commanded idle. Those two symptoms contradict what I would normally do to adjust. For lazy response I typically shrink the airflow to trick the ECU to think its a smaller throttle body and open quicker....but higher than commanded idle (not much, only about 150rpms) I usually add airflow so ECU knows there is more air than stock and close it down.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    I know this is like the holy grail of information but curious if anyone has something to share for me. Car runs OK on base Hellcat throttle body data. But feels a little lazy in response to pedal input and has a higher than commanded idle. Those two symptoms contradict what I would normally do to adjust. For lazy response I typically shrink the airflow to trick the ECU to think its a smaller throttle body and open quicker....but higher than commanded idle (not much, only about 150rpms) I usually add airflow so ECU knows there is more air than stock and close it down.

    vacuum leak?

  3. #3
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    Log of idle and revving attached, you can see the laziness to return to idle opening (12.6% or so). Maybe this is normal for the higher flowing 4.5L whipple with stock bypass. Ignore IAT temps, had some bad wiring on the coolant and IAT temps.

    Startup Tune 1 Log 2.hpl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmoney View Post
    vacuum leak?
    Yea maybe, will be checking everything over, but I don't think so. Vacuum at idle looks pretty good.

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    Ugh actually i think i know what it is, I think it is a vacuum leak.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Yea maybe, will be checking everything over, but I don't think so. Vacuum at idle looks pretty good.
    when I build my motor, My right bank intake gasket got ripped under the supercharger. Was causing higher than commanded idle. But was also causing a right bank lean code.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kmoney View Post
    when I build my motor, My right bank intake gasket got ripped under the supercharger. Was causing higher than commanded idle. But was also causing a right bank lean code.
    Using cometic gaskets, they would be very tough to rip but for sure I will recheck everything. If you look at the log i posted I am actually dead nuts to idle speed. My elevated is mostly observed in drive.

  8. #8
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    Its idling at 20in/hg with a 236/249 .620 lift cam, 115.5lsa. That's pretty damn good and not indicative of a vacuum leak.

  9. #9
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    Mine did the same thing. Actually still does. It is getting better. I've noticed that the clearing the adaptives via VCM scanner must not completely erase all remnants of them. After changing tq friction several times, 1 bank wants to add 15+ fuel. I disconnected the battery and discharged any power left in the ECM, and now both 02 sensors are updating very close together. Fuel trims are also now within 1% +/- of either bank. ETC relearn accompanied with this also appeared to be key. However, not for the faint of heart. ECM will default back to preprogrammed fuel trims... saw+32 on both banks for a few seconds, but everything adjusted just fine.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ztuned View Post
    Mine did the same thing. Actually still does. It is getting better. I've noticed that the clearing the adaptives via VCM scanner must not completely erase all remnants of them. After changing tq friction several times, 1 bank wants to add 15+ fuel. I disconnected the battery and discharged any power left in the ECM, and now both 02 sensors are updating very close together. Fuel trims are also now within 1% +/- of either bank. ETC relearn accompanied with this also appeared to be key. However, not for the faint of heart. ECM will default back to preprogrammed fuel trims... saw+32 on both banks for a few seconds, but everything adjusted just fine.
    No fuel trim issues here, just throttle body and air flow. Car is running open loop at the moment, so all trims are 0%.

  11. #11
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    Also, my Whipple intake manifold wasn't machined/finished correctly. It was not sealing on the insides of both banks towards the valley. When i took it off, my gaskets were stuck on the outside corners, which further confirms it. After getting the manifold sorted, The car hasn't been driven long enough to reset any of the monitors. I have noticed that the EVAP purge plays a roll in the idle. The computer will command a certain percentage depending on which way the RPM's are swinging until there are within threshold for desired idle speed.

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    Don't use the Cometic gaskets. We have had so many problems trying to get them to seal because of the Whipples lower intake....well I shouldn't get into that really.

    Use the stock gaskets. Just trust me on this one. It's not that the gaskets are the problem, it's the lower intake. We tried 4 different lowers before we tried the stock gaskets and it took care the problems.

    Also which injectors are you using?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ztuned View Post
    Also, my Whipple intake manifold wasn't machined/finished correctly. It was not sealing on the insides of both banks towards the valley. When i took it off, my gaskets were stuck on the outside corners, which further confirms it. After getting the manifold sorted, The car hasn't been driven long enough to reset any of the monitors. I have noticed that the EVAP purge plays a roll in the idle. The computer will command a certain percentage depending on which way the RPM's are swinging until there are within threshold for desired idle speed.
    It's nice to know that we weren't the only ones with the problem.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    Don't use the Cometic gaskets. We have had so many problems trying to get them to seal because of the Whipples lower intake....well I shouldn't get into that really.

    Use the stock gaskets. Just trust me on this one. It's not that the gaskets are the problem, it's the lower intake. We tried 4 different lowers before we tried the stock gaskets and it took care the problems.

    Also which injectors are you using?
    What were your symptoms that made you look closer? I don't really have any symptoms of a vacuum leak. I will monitor the evap purge solenoid, but aside from that, last few trips out the idle is almost dead nuts.

    Using ID1300x2's, fore triple pump.
    Last edited by 06300CSRT8; 03-28-2019 at 04:19 PM.

  15. #15
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    Bump back up @Jay@HAP...

    What were the symptoms that made you question the intake gasket seal? My only symptom is actually lower than expected boost (14psi with 5.0" upper and 10% lower on a 426 with thiteks).

  16. #16
    What elevation do you live at? Between a high elevation and much larger displacement engine with high flow heads, that may be a accurate boost number. The blower is feeding more displacement so its more work on blower.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by orrwhat View Post
    What elevation do you live at? Between a high elevation and much larger displacement engine with high flow heads, that may be a accurate boost number. The blower is feeding more displacement so its more work on blower.
    Near sea level

  18. #18
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    I've found the TB flow of that big oval has a different "shape" than the round TBs. it actually worked best with "more" flow at the tiny angles (voltages); about stock flow in the 1.5-2.2V; and then up like a rocket to near a maxed out value before getting to the 3.6/4 V area. the TB will happily go to almost 5V at WOT. I messed with that area for awhile but it never seemed to prove fruitful.

    The other thing you need to pay attention to is how sh***y the bypass passage is on the 4.5L whipple (I'm assuming this is what you have). you need to adjust for that in the Bypass Flow table. No way you get the full 400+ flow out of it when it is full open. You'll see this in the Inlet and Intermediate MAP values. even when crusing around in vacuum, there will be a noticeable differential across the rotors that the bypass just can't get rid of.
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  19. #19
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    you'll also need to get the supercharger flow table shape worked out, as its used to help set the bypass angle... I never got around to finishing the 4.5 tune before the car went in a different direction, so I can't share final results at all.

  20. #20
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    I’m using a custom controller for the stock bypass on the 4.5L whipple, it follows the pedal voltage so I’m confident it’s fully closed at full pedal and fully open at no pedal, my ECU doesn’t care the blower is out flowing the open bypass I’m tuning this on a 2014 GPEC, non hellcat ECU
    Last edited by 06300CSRT8; 04-22-2019 at 08:58 PM.