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Thread: Timing and injector split on a 6.7

  1. #1
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    Timing and injector split on a 6.7

    Does anyone have experience tuning these 6.7s and know what a good ballpark timing value and injector split these trucks like for power? I've seen tunes with 155mg torque to fuel tables and 2-3ms of injector PW @25k psi have negative values for timing at 2600RPM all the way to 3400RPM! Is there a reason for that? or am i missing something? I thought you'd add timing when increasing fuel mass to maintain your split. Also why would you need to add more injector PW when you can add mg of fuel in the tq to fuel tables? Wouldn't the ECU turn more mg of fuel into more PW? I can't log injector PW to see what my actual PW is, I just see my mg of fuel being delivered. I know i could use my stock Injector PW table to backwards calc the fuel PW but if you guys change them to make more power you can't know at that point? Anyways please educate me! Thanks in advance for your reply's!

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    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    do the tunes you are looking at have pilot injection disabled? if there is a pilot injection then maybe it won't need full advanced main timing.

    PW is duration, spraying more mg takes longer, I would think it's six of one or half dozen of the other in that case.

    don't know if there is a timing calculator out there for these but I just picked up a 19 powerstroke and having lots of fun learning to tune with no spark plugs. :-)

    just not much to read about these I guess.

  3. #3
    I made a timing calculator for them. About a 50 50 split is what I used on my 6.4 and it worked well. That is wayyyy to much IPW, the 11-14s max out around 1450 us at Max rail pressure. That's enough fuel for high 400s to 550 depending on turbo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CKrueg View Post
    I made a timing calculator for them. About a 50 50 split is what I used on my 6.4 and it worked well. That is wayyyy to much IPW, the 11-14s max out around 1450 us at Max rail pressure. That's enough fuel for high 400s to 550 depending on turbo
    What is the stock timing split on them? I'm curious to see what the factory does. Also would you be willing to share your timing calc? I have a very nice one from a guy who posted one a while back, Possibly you lol. I'm always curious to compare if there are any differences. What's the main difference in comanding fuel in the tq to fuel map and injector PW. I'd think the factory would have scaled the injector pw map perfect and you'd only have to add fuel via the torque to fuel map.

  5. #5
    Factory may be best for emissions, noise etc. It all depends on your priorities. Factory is definitely NOT tuned for max power and efficiency. I'll post it up when I get back to my tuning laptop. Typically if you add fuel in the PW map only do it at the very top to keep everything working normally under normal driving conditions. There are a ton of things that reference estimate torque and by adding fuel all over that is thrown off. Also adding fuel down low will require adding boost to keep combustion efficient

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    I've been adding fuel to my tq to fuel map but only in the 800+tq range and i added timing to keep it at a 50-50 split. Ill reset it and see if adding fuel to the pw up top feels any different. I'm trying to get it to make power all the way to 3400, the main limiter i've found for reving it out is Trans OSS for shifting but it'd lay over unless there is fuel on the tq to fuel map. i wanted to get my fueling and boost right before letting it rev out to 3400. I love the way it shifts and drives down low. i also like the pedal map how it is not super touchy all the time.

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    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I'll just throw this out there....

    This appears to be a torque based computer like the ecoboost and newer gm gas stuff, etc.

    The fuel tables are mapped out up to 1033 ft lbs and the Driver Demand table basically lines up with advertised power levels.

    Have you tried simply demanding more power and raising your limiters in the right places and right amounts to let it happen?

    Would you then have a 100 ft lb tune?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    I'll just throw this out there....

    This appears to be a torque based computer like the ecoboost and newer gm gas stuff, etc.

    The fuel tables are mapped out up to 1033 ft lbs and the Driver Demand table basically lines up with advertised power levels.

    Have you tried simply demanding more power and raising your limiters in the right places and right amounts to let it happen?

    Would you then have a 100 ft lb tune?
    Yes i have and it helped some but not too much of a difference, commanding 1200 from 1033 did absolutely nothing which makes me think we've hit our stock limit. When i added fuel at first i just added it to a factory defuling area at 3400rpm and it seemed to make a difference, it wanted to rev instead of lay over as hard between the shifts. I added fuel in the TQ to fuel table along with timing and it seemed to help. I just started adding boost and that really seemed to help but i haven't gotten far enough yet. But let me explain My whole thought process on how i'm understanding tuning and hp tuners, feel free to correct me i'd love to know if i'm wrong. If i want to make more power i need fuel, i can add more fuel one of two ways and make more power "if" the air is there, idk if it is or isn't but i'll give it a shot and see. Who knows maybe ford left me some excess air to burn. So i look at my options for fueling. The injector quantity table shows the flow of the stock injectors at a given pressure per x amount of time, i could change this to get more fuel by saying it takes longer that it really does to flow a certain amount. Therefor unless i changed injectors i theoretically shouldn't need to change anything on this table, unless ford messed up or i find a spot the injectors just aren't flowing what i think they should. I then think there's gotta be another way to add fuel and to me that's the tq to fuel table. We want X tq we need X fuel! That seems super simple and makes sense to me! X torque commanded at X RPM means X fuel. When my pedal is at 80-100% i want it all! so now we command the fuel for 1200tq. I look at the boost control tables and guess what!?!? They are also overlaid by tq and rpm! So niw u think i know how to add fuel! Sooo! i can slowly start adding fuel, air, and timing until my components can't mechanically keep up and those areas don't lose hp/tq from taking or adding fuel and timing. That's how i see it let me know if i'm wrong! lol i hope this helps you guys see my reservations to add microseconds to the pw table.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I'm not saying your doing it right or wrong because I don't know if you are.

    What I was saying is that the demanded/commanded torque level in the tune is 900 or 930 or whatever.
    The fueling tables are mapped to 1033.

    So if you demanded/commanded 1033 (and changed some of the limiters to allow it) then technically the ECM should be able to do the rest meaning you don't need to change timing/duration/boost values or anything really. Now if you wanted more than 1033, like 1200 as you mention, then you will need to revise those tables of course.

    the issue with that is I haven't seen anything regarding what to measure/target to hit your power level. Diesel doesn't seem to use lambda to make power so it isn't like you can measure fueling error in your airflow model and make an adjustment. So how do I know I am making progress? Push more fuel to a certain EGT?

    Also, if you look at the heavy load areas they appear to have decent timing in them, especially if you consider pilot injections, which are even more advanced.....I dunno.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching View Post
    Yes i have and it helped some but not too much of a difference, commanding 1200 from 1033 did absolutely nothing which makes me think we've hit our stock limit. When i added fuel at first i just added it to a factory defuling area at 3400rpm and it seemed to make a difference, it wanted to rev instead of lay over as hard between the shifts. I added fuel in the TQ to fuel table along with timing and it seemed to help. I just started adding boost and that really seemed to help but i haven't gotten far enough yet. But let me explain My whole thought process on how i'm understanding tuning and hp tuners, feel free to correct me i'd love to know if i'm wrong. If i want to make more power i need fuel, i can add more fuel one of two ways and make more power "if" the air is there, idk if it is or isn't but i'll give it a shot and see. Who knows maybe ford left me some excess air to burn. So i look at my options for fueling. The injector quantity table shows the flow of the stock injectors at a given pressure per x amount of time, i could change this to get more fuel by saying it takes longer that it really does to flow a certain amount. Therefor unless i changed injectors i theoretically shouldn't need to change anything on this table, unless ford messed up or i find a spot the injectors just aren't flowing what i think they should. I then think there's gotta be another way to add fuel and to me that's the tq to fuel table. We want X tq we need X fuel! That seems super simple and makes sense to me! X torque commanded at X RPM means X fuel. When my pedal is at 80-100% i want it all! so now we command the fuel for 1200tq. I look at the boost control tables and guess what!?!? They are also overlaid by tq and rpm! So niw u think i know how to add fuel! Sooo! i can slowly start adding fuel, air, and timing until my components can't mechanically keep up and those areas don't lose hp/tq from taking or adding fuel and timing. That's how i see it let me know if i'm wrong! lol i hope this helps you guys see my reservations to add microseconds to the pw table.
    That is pretty much right. The reason adding torque above 1033 doesn't do anything is because that's that max axis value in the torque to fuel map. Anything above that the fuel quantity is unchanged. Your next step would be to max out your last column on the torque to fuel map- I believe 160 mg. Then go to the IPW map and if you still want more, add duration to the 160 mg column. Be careful here as too much will drain the fuel rail. Also you will need to change timing here to keep combustion centered around TDC vs out the exhaust. Like you stated you will need more air as well. Stock 11-14 turbos are delicate and they don't live long above 30 psi.Screenshot_20190414-092559_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20190414-092559_Gallery.jpg
    Last edited by CKrueg; 04-14-2019 at 08:34 AM.

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    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Hmm, maybe we are looking at two different things, my 6.7 is a 2019, if you guys are working with an 11-14 the ecm logic is probably different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CKrueg View Post
    That is pretty much right. The reason adding torque above 1033 doesn't do anything is because that's that max axis value in the torque to fuel map. Anything above that the fuel quantity is unchanged. Your next step would be to max out your last column on the torque to fuel map- I believe 160 mg. Then go to the IPW map and if you still want more, add duration to the 160 mg column. Be careful here as too much will drain the fuel rail. Also you will need to change timing here to keep combustion centered around TDC vs out the exhaust. Like you stated you will need more air as well. Stock 11-14 turbos are delicate and they don't live long above 30 psi.Screenshot_20190414-092559_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20190414-092559_Gallery.jpg
    Awesome that makes perfect sense, i will try that. Any luck with going either side of a 50/50 split on these 2017+ trucks? Or a boost limit to stay at? i heard we can make roughly 550hp DPF intact but i don't have a clue on how much fuel that should require or boost. Any rough numbers would be awesome so i don't overshoot and soot the crap out of my DPF lol, Thanks CKrueg i appreciate the knowledge and help. Also My truck is a 2018 f250, so i think it has the revamped version of the 2011 single sequential turbo but i'm not 100% sure? I heard it's the same as the 2015 also but I haven't been able to look at it quite yet. Higgs Boson we have the exact same ECU with the exact same tune and engine that i know. I'd love for you to post your stock tune up and i'll post mine up and we can verify that.

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    6.7L Powerstroke Timing Calculator.xlsx2018 F250 Stock.hpt Here is my stock tune and the timing calc i've been using. I didn't make this calc but i've been using it and transposing the tq to fuel table in excel as it's not the same as HP tuners.

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    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    gotcha, yes then I am sure they are the same. I saw 11-14 up there and thought you might have one of those.

    here is my stock tune.

    2019 F250 Diesel Stock.hpt

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    I just want to say we have had good luck with tuning thus far. Truck runs good and seems to like the changes, dyno time coming soon. I got some good advice from a good tuner over team viewer and i added some PW to the 160mg column after verifying truck was commanding 160mg. We are at 1280us from the stock 1230us @ 200000KPA rail pressure. I gotta say it's pretty darn quick! CKrueg do you recommend changing the pilot timing at all? I turned off pilot fueling above 2200 RPM, stock had i think 1.5mg from 2200-3400. It doesn't seem to do much but i see your timing calc has all kinds of goodies there. Lots of time and hard work into it i'm sure, so i won't ask you to share it but i am curious to know what if any changes you think should be made to pilot timing and pilot fueling after adding us to the main injection?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JaegerWrenching View Post
    I just want to say we have had good luck with tuning thus far. Truck runs good and seems to like the changes, dyno time coming soon. I got some good advice from a good tuner over team viewer and i added some PW to the 160mg column after verifying truck was commanding 160mg. We are at 1280us from the stock 1230us @ 200000KPA rail pressure. I gotta say it's pretty darn quick! CKrueg do you recommend changing the pilot timing at all? I turned off pilot fueling above 2200 RPM, stock had i think 1.5mg from 2200-3400. It doesn't seem to do much but i see your timing calc has all kinds of goodies there. Lots of time and hard work into it i'm sure, so i won't ask you to share it but i am curious to know what if any changes you think should be made to pilot timing and pilot fueling after adding us to the main injection?
    I read a few study's and for the most part pilot mass had the greatest effect. More mass resulted in a slower pressure spike and reduced injection delay. It actually increased smoke but reduced NOx and noise. It did have a positive effect if main timing was retarded but the overall efficiency was better with increased main timing and reduced pilot mass. As for timing it had a greater effect on noise when it was close to the main injection however the best results was with 2 smaller pilots spaced out. What I did was converted the timing from degrees to Ms and then spaced them out a certain time before the main injection. So basically one pilot is always starting around 1 Ms before the main and the other is one Ms before the other pilot. Also as load increases I spaced them closer to the main since in theory they should ignite sooner after injection meaning you need less advance
    I'm not totally sure if this is best but the OEM map is all over the place which seems odd. My 6.4 ran great like this so I imagine it works well.