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Thread: 4r200 tune help needed

  1. #1

    4r200 tune help needed

    I am trying to tune my car with the 4r200 and I started with the base tune from PBH. I am posting the tune and the log below. The car threw P0731 "gear 1 in correct ratio". I have changed the ratios everywhere I can find in the tune but it is still showing calculated gear ratio of 4.17 not 2.74. Any help you guys have to offer would be great.4r200 test4.hpltesttunenow04.23.2019.hpt
    Last edited by Kcc0521; 04-23-2019 at 06:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    Send a ticket to support. Rumor has it they dont have everything defined yet to setup the 4r200 correctly.

  3. #3

    4R200 4th to 2nd while tune commands 3rd

    IncorrectGear.hpl4r200Barebonesv8brad tune4 paddle 4 OD.hpt

    I am still having issues with the commanded gear using the 4R200 hub. There seems to be a missing table or a bug in the software that puts the car in a different gear from the current commanded gear. In the attached log I paddle shifted the car from 4th to 3rd and the commanded gear displayed 3rd like the car was in 3rd gear but it was actually in 2nd gear until the shift id dropped from 11 back to 74. You can tell it was in 2nd by the RPM, the fact the converter is locked and the calculated gear ratio. I think this table that is missing is also messing up the calculated gear ratio of reverse. Reverse works but it shows a calculated gear ratio of 2.74 not 3.40. Any help you guys have to offer would be greatly appreciated.

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Have you tried changing shift ID?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Have you tried changing shift ID?
    Where do you change that in the tune? Can you elaborate?

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Torque tab
    Will that actually change the Shift ID that it references in drive mode as well as paddles. From what I have noticed drive uses shift ID 74, downshift paddle is ID 8 and upshift paddle is ID 11. If I can get it to only reference 74 it might fix the issue.

  8. #8
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    Reverse should be 2.24 with out the 1.52 reduction of the front planetary, not 3.4.

    If you are forced to use the paddles for 3-4 and 4-3 shifts, I would just make both up and down shifts above 3rd 16000.

    If you had a shift map that got you shift RPMs you liked from the stock front planet, you can just multiply the 1-2, 2-3, 3-2, and 2-1 columns by 1.52 and it should get you shifting right where you were.
    this could apply to the 3-4 and 4-3 columns as well, but I think the ECU freaks out when it has to go form two clutches to a different two clutches, as there's not just one oncoming and offgoing. Forcing you to use the paddles for that shift.

    I would change all the shift maps, just in case you end up in another somehow.

    My guess at a fully working clutch config, not needing the paddle shifting, would be something like in this picture.

    4r200 clutch config maybe.PNG

    3rd would already be 1:1 so connecting the input shaft to the rear carrier wouldn't affect anything. Solenoid E comes on in 3rd to allow solenoid D to control the (E)overdrive clutch, but is not used until 4th in a stock transmission, this works to our advantage.

    Pressures/ solenoid control would be:
    3-4 Off going would be A&B oncoming would be C, E would be the power holding clutch.
    4-3 Off going would be C and oncoming would be A&B, E would be the power holding clutch.
    2-3 Off going would be C and oncoming would be B&E(D), A would be the power hold clutch.
    3-2 Off going would be B&E(D) and oncoming would be C, A would be the power hold clutch.

    "Shifts are power-on overlapping shifts. That is, during the shift, one of the clutches must
    continue to transmit the drive at lower main pressure until the other clutch is able to accept the input torque."
    This critical fact of this transmissions operation is maintained true with this clutch config. So it shouldn't neutral out on shifts when it thinks nothing is holding the power.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Reverse should be 2.24 with out the 1.52 reduction of the front planetary, not 3.4.

    If you are forced to use the paddles for 3-4 and 4-3 shifts, I would just make both up and down shifts above 3rd 16000.

    If you had a shift map that got you shift RPMs you liked from the stock front planet, you can just multiply the 1-2, 2-3, 3-2, and 2-1 columns by 1.52 and it should get you shifting right where you were.
    this could apply to the 3-4 and 4-3 columns as well, but I think the ECU freaks out when it has to go form two clutches to a different two clutches, as there's not just one oncoming and offgoing. Forcing you to use the paddles for that shift.

    I would change all the shift maps, just in case you end up in another somehow.

    My guess at a fully working clutch config, not needing the paddle shifting, would be something like in this picture.

    4r200 clutch config maybe.PNG

    3rd would already be 1:1 so connecting the input shaft to the rear carrier wouldn't affect anything. Solenoid E comes on in 3rd to allow solenoid D to control the (E)overdrive clutch, but is not used until 4th in a stock transmission, this works to our advantage.

    Pressures/ solenoid control would be:
    3-4 Off going would be A&B oncoming would be C, E would be the power holding clutch.
    4-3 Off going would be C and oncoming would be A&B, E would be the power holding clutch.
    2-3 Off going would be C and oncoming would be B&E(D), A would be the power hold clutch.
    3-2 Off going would be B&E(D) and oncoming would be C, A would be the power hold clutch.

    "Shifts are power-on overlapping shifts. That is, during the shift, one of the clutches must
    continue to transmit the drive at lower main pressure until the other clutch is able to accept the input torque."
    This critical fact of this transmissions operation is maintained true with this clutch config. So it shouldn't neutral out on shifts when it thinks nothing is holding the power.

    Thanks for all the help with this. I did get a tune working ok. The upshift takes a second to complete and it is a bit clunky but the downshift is great. I had to read the SCT based tune then add my engine data to that tune because there still seems to be a table that defines gear rations not accessible in HPT. I have attached the tune that works and the tune that does not work. If you compare them the are the same. I also included the log of that bad tune. Thanks again for all the help.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
    We are still struggling with this 4R200 setup. The car will randomly go from 4-2 on the 4-3 downshift. The car still displays 3 even though it is actually in 2nd. Any additional ideas you guys have to offer would be greatly appreciated.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kcc0521 View Post
    We are still struggling with this 4R200 setup. The car will randomly go from 4-2 on the 4-3 downshift. The car still displays 3 even though it is actually in 2nd. Any additional ideas you guys have to offer would be greatly appreciated.

    Did you ever get this fixed? i'm thinking about doing the same with my car

  12. #12
    I broke the car at the track on the transbrake but it appears issue happens when you downshift from 4-3 under light throttle. If I do it under no throttle it was fine. Not sure what causes it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kcc0521 View Post
    I broke the car at the track on the transbrake but it appears issue happens when you downshift from 4-3 under light throttle. If I do it under no throttle it was fine. Not sure what causes it.
    What broke?
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  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    What broke?
    He pushed the Pump bushing out from too much pressure.
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  15. #15
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrooks98 View Post
    He pushed the Pump bushing out from too much pressure.
    That must have been all the pressure.

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    That must have been all the pressure.

    It's a common problem with a tight stall and a higher powered turbo car. Solid Bushing in the 15up is a flawed design, that and the stock flex plate flexes too much letting the converter come too far forward. He's got some things to try
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  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbrooks98 View Post
    It's a common problem with a tight stall and a higher powered turbo car. Solid Bushing in the 15up is a flawed design, that and the stock flex plate flexes too much letting the converter come too far forward. He's got some things to try
    Been using TT with trans brake no issues. We have seen many failures with 6R80 but nothing related to pump bushing. I'm surprised.

    Stock bushings are made of Chinesium and if you go big boi with choo choo you have to upgrade them all.

  18. #18
    I had Bret Lasala modify my 2015 pumop for a roller style bearing from the early 2011 model. he said this will fix my issue. I also figured out that the car only goes from 4th to 2nd if I down shift under throttle. If I lift completely and down shift it does fine. It still takes a second to shift the 4th but it is not too bad.

  19. #19
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Change Turbine Speed Ratio to 1. This will fix your issue.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner bbrooks98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    Change Turbine Speed Ratio to 1. This will fix your issue.
    Already Done, we pulled a SCT tune with those settings already and went from there. Thanks Eric for adding that and a few other ratio tables for the 4R200s
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