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Thread: BIG Boost Hellcats. any ideas before i burn it?

  1. #21
    I've been plagued by this problem forever. I've tried 3 of the big name tuners, just did worse each time. Updated the pcm and tcm by dodge. No change. It's a fully built hellcat charger 2015 HHP427 motor whipple 4.5 big oval TB ID1700 injectors Fore triple pump built paramount trans DSS driveshaft Hooks LTH exhaust cutouts no cats 3 bar map sensors 3.5 pulley right now. Hits a wall about 5500 rpm on the smaller pulley. Hits the wall at 3700 rpm with the 3.0 pulley. Runs pretty much to 7k on the 4.5 pulley. Here's the latest map on the car right now and the most recent datalog on the dyno tonight. Making just a touch over 1000. Which really really sucks. Because we were making 1070 on the stock motor with the whipple. And that was on the spare tire pulley. I've tried so many things on this car for the last 2 years. I replaced the Bypass valve about a year ago. And that seemed to stop the limp mode that came on all the time. No codes. Just took for granted that the windshield wiper must've contacted it at some time. We got one of the first whipple kits with the cnc'd base plate. Now it has the cast base plate. No vacuum leaks detected. I've flashed this PCM a thousand times I think. It's just such a let down.
    This is the map and datalog where I just let it shift through the gears. I put the trans tables at the stock shift points to see if the car was somewhat driveable this way. At least it make torque down low. Just missing out at the high rpm hp.
    I made a ground wire to the throttle body and bypass valve bolts. No breaks or shorts in the wire I can detect.24z3.hpt26.hpl

  2. #22
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    Looks like you running into the PR limit (currently set at 2.8).
    With your Baro at 84kpa (guessing ur at some altitude), the pressure ratio gets up there faster than MAP does.
    Mine is set at 3.0 and I am at sea level (101kpa). Running 260kpa MAP on similar 426 4.5 setup my PR is 2.6.
    Same MAP at your Baro would be over 3.0 PR
    You can see in log it maxes at 2.8PR and then starts limiting boost/airflow... probably with the bypass valve.
    You should log bypass position to see what it is doing, also need to log more TQ numbers and airflows to make sure it isnt hitting any other limits each time you pulley down.

  3. #23
    I have raised those values to 7. No change. I am at 5000 ft elevation. I have logged so many damn datalogs, including as much parameters as I can, and still maintain a decent refresh rate. Not hitting any limiters. Only after it shuts the throttle, and I stay on the pedal, after a few seconds, it will show "limp mode" on the trans request. I have quite possibly tried over a thousand different tunes. The biggest successes were replacing the throttle body, with the same whipple throttle body. That netted another 6 months of use, before it would start going into limp mode again. And when I replaced the bypass valve, I really thought that was it. Until I went to pulley down again. I have tried NN on and off. I have done some weird shit, that would sometimes get another 200-500 rpm before cutting. I just checked my folders for this car, I have 738 files for this car. That's a combo of datalogs and tune files. Many many 2 am nights trying to get it figured out. This is just about the last attempt on this car. Chances are, I'll put the smaller pulley back on, make a shitty 945 hp, and fire sale the car. Although, everything worked pretty damn good until the whipple. I've tuned several stock blower pullied hellcats to the 900 hp range. And they ran great. This is the only big blower hellcat for me. I've tuned several other mopars in the past with kenne bell's and prochargers with minimal problems. I always resolved the problems. And the hellcat is whole different animal (get it, animal?), so I expect some difficulties. Which is why I have payed a few thousand dollars to other tuners to try to resolve this. I was just always left holding a steamy bag a shit, just more in debt. Sorry if this is coming across with a frustration tone, I'm just at my wits end here.
    I've seen other people have issues with the hellcat and whipple, while searching here, and no one posts tunes. So at least, I'm posting a tune. I'd post more tunes, but it would be next to impossible to navigate all the tunes for this car. But if for some miraculous reason I get this figured out, I'll post the tune. So just in case someone else out there is having these issues, they have something to go on.

  4. #24
    I have datalogged commanded throttle and torque values in the past also. One of the big things that sticks out with me, I'd datalog throttle duty cycle and commanded throttle, and it would show the duty cycle ramp up to 100% right when the throttle would start fluctuating, and then finally the throttle would close. And the car would go into limp mode. The bypass valve was staying closed properly and the commanded values have been showing it as being closed. Here's a datalog with some of those parameters. And the corresponding map.
    24z3.hpl24z3.hpt

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    I have raised those values to 7. No change. I am at 5000 ft elevation. I have logged so many damn datalogs, including as much parameters as I can, and still maintain a decent refresh rate. Not hitting any limiters. Only after it shuts the throttle, and I stay on the pedal, after a few seconds, it will show "limp mode" on the trans request. I have quite possibly tried over a thousand different tunes. The biggest successes were replacing the throttle body, with the same whipple throttle body. That netted another 6 months of use, before it would start going into limp mode again. And when I replaced the bypass valve, I really thought that was it. Until I went to pulley down again. I have tried NN on and off. I have done some weird shit, that would sometimes get another 200-500 rpm before cutting. I just checked my folders for this car, I have 738 files for this car. That's a combo of datalogs and tune files. Many many 2 am nights trying to get it figured out. This is just about the last attempt on this car. Chances are, I'll put the smaller pulley back on, make a shitty 945 hp, and fire sale the car. Although, everything worked pretty damn good until the whipple. I've tuned several stock blower pullied hellcats to the 900 hp range. And they ran great. This is the only big blower hellcat for me. I've tuned several other mopars in the past with kenne bell's and prochargers with minimal problems. I always resolved the problems. And the hellcat is whole different animal (get it, animal?), so I expect some difficulties. Which is why I have payed a few thousand dollars to other tuners to try to resolve this. I was just always left holding a steamy bag a shit, just more in debt. Sorry if this is coming across with a frustration tone, I'm just at my wits end here.
    I've seen other people have issues with the hellcat and whipple, while searching here, and no one posts tunes. So at least, I'm posting a tune. I'd post more tunes, but it would be next to impossible to navigate all the tunes for this car. But if for some miraculous reason I get this figured out, I'll post the tune. So just in case someone else out there is having these issues, they have something to go on.
    I hear you, and understand your frustration. I have serious health issues and have not tuned anything since 06, so I'm starting over almost. I like to see the dodge community grow a little for people that are learning these cars its tough road, you look up some of the well known tuners and they asked questions in past in this forum and threads grew but the thread never seems to follow to the answer. Nice aj took the time to make some suggestions.

    I am talking out loud here so take it with a grain of salt, you stated your best success was replacing the throttle body, I seen people recently complain about there throttle bodies this week having issues! If its not the throttle body It would have to be a hard or known soft limiter needing rescaling or hardware. I have read many threads of the well known tuners all struggled and some worked together for a year to get a handle on the big throttle bodies for the hellcats but no information on how to solve these problems, seems like a lot of it was airflow correlations issues.

    I was struggling with NN mindset thinking it was a real intelligent NN and got some good advise from ZH tunes "NN is nothing more than a glorified VE map that’s pre programmed. There’s no “intelligence” about it since it’s all pre determined output based on what it’s been trained on for inputs such as Pressure ratio, rpm, intake and exhaust cam angles." to me this was invaluable, because I was over complicating it, My brother is a nuclear engineer and did his thesis and NN and I was overcomplicating this big time. Defined parameters are predictable, still complex system for the average grass roots racer. I cannot help you with specifics just trying to offer hope, I am tuning my own car to keep my mind active, its not as fast of a process as it used to be because when your a dealer with diablosport and other venders tuning cars daily, they help there dealers, and you get your hands one many different applications advise and headsup on what's working and what is having problems, that said adding dodge to my dealer CMR for me was not necessary, i believe i am where i need to be with Hpt.

    What do you do with your car, drag race, road race, standing mile, pikes peak, car shows, parades, dyno? I ask because i am sure your not the only one at the end of there rope, I think it would do the whole dodge community a favor to be more open like other platforms. If your a good tuner you should not worry about people stealing tunes, customers are loyal if your providing good honest service. I understand the frustration with the non transparent nature of dodge platform.

    Good luck with your car sounds like a beast, keep us posted on your progress , I plan to keep my tunes transparent in hopes it helps others in the future. My first tune was a success ,I ran personal best, 9 full 1/4 mile passed of datalogging to look over and a track rental in 10 days, as much as i get frustrated i know it will be worth it in the end! You will figure this out!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    I have datalogged commanded throttle and torque values in the past also. One of the big things that sticks out with me, I'd datalog throttle duty cycle and commanded throttle, and it would show the duty cycle ramp up to 100% right when the throttle would start fluctuating, and then finally the throttle would close. And the car would go into limp mode. The bypass valve was staying closed properly and the commanded values have been showing it as being closed. Here's a datalog with some of those parameters. And the corresponding map.
    24z3.hpl24z3.hpt
    Do you have a log with the throttle duty cycle? Not sure I have ever seen that PID logged. I think i see whats going on here but need more logging info, your logs are pretty light as far as parameters. If you are finding your logging freezes from adding more parameters, you need to turn down the sample rate on some of the non-important items and consider a laptop with more memory. I log over 40 parameters with no issues on almost every vehicle.

  7. #27
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    First and foremost, you need to up your trans torque limit. You are RIGHT at your torque limit the entire pull. Trans->Torque Management->General->Max Torque Limit->Max. Its sitting right at 664.

    I also see a lot of misc torque limits in this same tab that are too low. For example your Gear based Normal is 811lb ft, your actual torque output is showing in the log as 1100+.


    Just quick observations.

  8. #28
    Here's a datalog I just did with the trans torque tables raised and other suggestions raised. The reason they were low was purely accidental. I've flashed the car so many times, I lose track of what things I've changed. At least the car drives good on the street.
    You can see the throttle start closing at about 5400 rpm. The boost is dropping accordingly. I didn't log the BPV values this time. But the BPV has been staying closed and commanding close. In this datalog, you can see it commanding the throttle open, duty cycle ramps up to 100%, and the throttle is fluctuating.
    My laptop aint the newest kid on the block. But it only slows down on dodge datalogging. If I log the stuff I don't normally concern myself with. And the scanner has just shut down after logging sometimes. Only on dodge. LOL.

    31b.hpt31.hpl

  9. #29
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    i forgot about this thread but its solved. by solved i mean i know what it is. its the throttle motors not being strong enough and pulling the blades shut. i have logs where i watching TB duty cycle and they max out trying to keep it open and then the blade jsut shuts. i have been working with a manufacture on a new tb that has a stronger motor and its working now no problem. waiting on production units.

  10. #30
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    if you want to know if this applies to you, watch duty cycle, desired tb angle vs actual. if your desired stays up and its closing, then its sucking the blade shut.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    Here's a datalog I just did with the trans torque tables raised and other suggestions raised. The reason they were low was purely accidental. I've flashed the car so many times, I lose track of what things I've changed. At least the car drives good on the street.
    You can see the throttle start closing at about 5400 rpm. The boost is dropping accordingly. I didn't log the BPV values this time. But the BPV has been staying closed and commanding close. In this datalog, you can see it commanding the throttle open, duty cycle ramps up to 100%, and the throttle is fluctuating.
    My laptop aint the newest kid on the block. But it only slows down on dodge datalogging. If I log the stuff I don't normally concern myself with. And the scanner has just shut down after logging sometimes. Only on dodge. LOL.

    31b.hpt31.hpl
    Here is my experience with the limiters and logging with VCM so far, I read conflicting data so i left trans torq limits stock and made some passed for data, I use a new laptop with USB c and as long as long as i have a internet connection it works correctly with all these parameters. You can see in my log the car started dumping boost second i exceeded torq limits in trans 738 , This was just a initial tune to get started but I think that datalogging you are doing would help to add some parameters because when i added more timing with race gas i set the torq limit much sooner. Ill post my datalog from last friday for reference at around 74mph you will see boost dumping, KPA drop, aircharge, etc.r4.hpl

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by just a nobody View Post
    if you want to know if this applies to you, watch duty cycle, desired tb angle vs actual. if your desired stays up and its closing, then its sucking the blade shut.
    Good to know thanks for update!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Do you have a log with the throttle duty cycle? Not sure I have ever seen that PID logged. I think i see whats going on here but need more logging info, your logs are pretty light as far as parameters. If you are finding your logging freezes from adding more parameters, you need to turn down the sample rate on some of the non-important items and consider a laptop with more memory. I log over 40 parameters with no issues on almost every vehicle.
    Good info, I was wondering where logging limits will be, I still do not understand why I have to be internet connected just to log data but it solved my random pid drop to make sure i was connected to my cell internet prior to logging
    !

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by just a nobody View Post
    if you want to know if this applies to you, watch duty cycle, desired tb angle vs actual. if your desired stays up and its closing, then its sucking the blade shut.
    We have been through this testing, the amount of force required to suck the throttle body closed is IMMENSLY more than the actual force applied at WOT, even on a 4.5L whipple. Sorry but just sharing what we have found. We ran many many tests on this, when i worked my way through the PID controller settings of the throttle body. I too thought my throttle was being sucked closed, which is was not. My guess is you had a weak throttle body motor to start and solved the issue with a stronger new motor, but a new motor would have sufficed just as well.

    Desired throttle angle is pedal commanded interpreted through to the torque desired output, but does NOT show you what the final ECU is actually commanding after all limits are applied. the tps angle is the final output from the ECU, if the blade was closed the ECU told it to. If the blade was being sucked closed, you would set a DTC and go into full limp mode, ie no throttle response at all, 4 cyl mode, until the vehicle ignition is cycle or vehicle is under 20mph for a period of time rolling. It would still store a host of DTCs, as well.

    For point of reference, we have tuned several 1500whp+ setups on throttle bodies built using stock dodge motors and gears, on 30+psi of boost flowing through them, they didnt so much as flinch or close even the slightest bit.
    Last edited by 06300CSRT8; 10-07-2020 at 03:26 PM.

  15. #35
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    Also after further checking, TB Duty Cycle is a HP Tuner calculated PID, it is not an actual output from the ECU. I always prefer to use my own math based on TPS voltage, and once I know my maximum, I divide by that voltage to get an actual % to log. But there is no concept of a variable voltage duty cycle being applied to the throttle body. ECU says give me x% at any moment, it doesnt cycle anything.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by joeapple View Post
    Here is my experience with the limiters and logging with VCM so far, I read conflicting data so i left trans torq limits stock and made some passed for data, I use a new laptop with USB c and as long as long as i have a internet connection it works correctly with all these parameters. You can see in my log the car started dumping boost second i exceeded torq limits in trans 738 , This was just a initial tune to get started but I think that datalogging you are doing would help to add some parameters because when i added more timing with race gas i set the torq limit much sooner. Ill post my datalog from last friday for reference at around 74mph you will see boost dumping, KPA drop, aircharge, etc.r4.hpl
    I see where the throttle torque source is switching between "pedal" and "trans". Mine stays on pedal. And on the bigger 4.5 pulley, I was hitting about 195 kpa. And I was able to get close to 7K rpm. But that just depends on the time of day, or the weather, or whether there's a tingle in my left leg. Basically, it would hit 6800 rpm area sometimes, and then sometimes it starts closing the throttle at 6500 rpm. With the 3.5 pulley, the rpm range came down to start closing around 5200 rpm. I still have a 3.0 pulley I want to put on it. But it closes the throttle at like 3500 rpm. I haven't tried that pulley for like 2 years. I'd love to put that pulley back on and make some good power. If only it was carb'd, distributor ignition with a th400 or a glide... LOL

  17. #37
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    Stupid question but...wheres your knock sensors and knock logging???

  18. #38
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    Also all your fuel stuff, duty cycle, pump pressure, pump duty cycle. All these things can lead to shut down if exceeded.

  19. #39
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    Have you ever upped the Engine->Airflow->Supercharger->Airflow->Airflow? Its still sitting stock, you are above that and seems like that is the exact table you are hitting for a limit. Anytime you increase airflow (pulley or larger supercharger) this table needs to go up.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Stupid question but...wheres your knock sensors and knock logging???
    Stock knock sensors in the stock location. I probably didn't log them in these logs to make sure I have the highest resolution in the other throttle parameters. It hasn't showed any signs of knocking yet. By how many dyno runs on this car, if it was knocking, it would've grenaded a long time ago. Half the miles on this car are dyno miles.