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Thread: BIG Boost Hellcats. any ideas before i burn it?

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Also all your fuel stuff, duty cycle, pump pressure, pump duty cycle. All these things can lead to shut down if exceeded.
    This is a Fore triple pump and fuel pressure has remained stable.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Have you ever upped the Engine->Airflow->Supercharger->Airflow->Airflow? Its still sitting stock, you are above that and seems like that is the exact table you are hitting for a limit. Anytime you increase airflow (pulley or larger supercharger) this table needs to go up.
    I've tried multiplying that table by 2, by 0.8, by 0.5, no change in the throttle limit. Some of the changes I've done have resulted in other driveability issues. And the other tuners have had their own airflow tables that still hasn't resulted in the throttle body working correctly. I've been leaning to the throttle body as the ultimate culprit. I wanted to try the kenne bell TB, but it won't bolt up to the whipple. Not ready to run down the road of switching the blower, just for the problem to still be there. The other tuners swore they had the solution. A few thousand dollars later, same problem.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    I see where the throttle torque source is switching between "pedal" and "trans". Mine stays on pedal. And on the bigger 4.5 pulley, I was hitting about 195 kpa. And I was able to get close to 7K rpm. But that just depends on the time of day, or the weather, or whether there's a tingle in my left leg. Basically, it would hit 6800 rpm area sometimes, and then sometimes it starts closing the throttle at 6500 rpm. With the 3.5 pulley, the rpm range came down to start closing around 5200 rpm. I still have a 3.0 pulley I want to put on it. But it closes the throttle at like 3500 rpm. I haven't tried that pulley for like 2 years. I'd love to put that pulley back on and make some good power. If only it was carb'd, distributor ignition with a th400 or a glide... LOL
    I left torq management alone trans limiter is stock and i hit it, I am not saying your hitting trans limit but may be another limit. this was my initial tune since 06 and my first hellcat. I was at the track to get data. Since the track was too packed I was not able to dive into the tune and work out my issue, that said car still went its best et but layed down at the top end, now i know why, and the logs have me excited because i have a lot to learn and progress to make, track rental real soon and ill use this data to move forward, I agree with 06300 seems you are not logging enough parameters to understand what your problems is. I asked you what this car was used for a reason, shows your intent. I would get a new laptop and log the suggested parameters. If you spent 1000s on tuners a decent laptop would be a good investment. We have different goals, but as far as help in the community seems like you got it, that nice to see. I am not new to tuning but I might as well be after 15 years of tuning nothing I posted my log as a example of what i can easily log in vcm, others I think offered you the advise you need to at least get the data necessary to find the problem.

  4. #44
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    This is correct.
    I have been thru this with a few TB's including a Whipple big oval.......If the TB motor is going bad the pcm sees desired position vs actual and decides if it isn't following correctly and shuts down the party as a safety measure.
    Can get a CEL for P02100, P02110 or P02100 (going by memory on the codes) or can get full limp with lightning bolt and misfire mode to control rpm. A new TB motor or another TB gets you back in the game.
    If it is closing throttle and opening bypass, then it is not happy about SOMETHING in tune.
    Being an OEM PCM, it has so many protection strategies hidden inside that you must be careful to not upset it.
    So it is generally best to change as few things as you can manage so you dont inadvertently upset other things.
    One change can affect 3 other things with these.
    The big Whipple changes airflow dynamics so much that unfortunately you have to change a lot of settings so is easy to tune it to a standstill. LOL.


    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    We have been through this testing, the amount of force required to suck the throttle body closed is IMMENSLY more than the actual force applied at WOT, even on a 4.5L whipple. Sorry but just sharing what we have found. We ran many many tests on this, when i worked my way through the PID controller settings of the throttle body. I too thought my throttle was being sucked closed, which is was not. My guess is you had a weak throttle body motor to start and solved the issue with a stronger new motor, but a new motor would have sufficed just as well.

    Desired throttle angle is pedal commanded interpreted through to the torque desired output, but does NOT show you what the final ECU is actually commanding after all limits are applied. the tps angle is the final output from the ECU, if the blade was closed the ECU told it to. If the blade was being sucked closed, you would set a DTC and go into full limp mode, ie no throttle response at all, 4 cyl mode, until the vehicle ignition is cycle or vehicle is under 20mph for a period of time rolling. It would still store a host of DTCs, as well.

    For point of reference, we have tuned several 1500whp+ setups on throttle bodies built using stock dodge motors and gears, on 30+psi of boost flowing through them, they didnt so much as flinch or close even the slightest bit.
    Last edited by Hemituna; 10-07-2020 at 05:29 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    I've tried multiplying that table by 2, by 0.8, by 0.5, no change in the throttle limit. Some of the changes I've done have resulted in other driveability issues. And the other tuners have had their own airflow tables that still hasn't resulted in the throttle body working correctly. I've been leaning to the throttle body as the ultimate culprit. I wanted to try the kenne bell TB, but it won't bolt up to the whipple. Not ready to run down the road of switching the blower, just for the problem to still be there. The other tuners swore they had the solution. A few thousand dollars later, same problem.
    "The biggest successes were replacing the throttle body, with the same whipple throttle body. That netted another 6 months of use" your post, if performance was acceptable for you for 6 months unless something changed !

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    This is a Fore triple pump and fuel pressure has remained stable.
    Sorry I know you THINK you?ve tried it all but we?re all hear to help figure out what you say 100 people have already tried to fix, clear as day someone missed something. So I?m sorry, posting one log of 15 PIDs and just telling us it?s fine isn?t cutting it for me.

    Mechanically having no issues is not the same as what the PCM THINKS it has. Till you show a log with all those things I still think it?s an issue. Without DTCs thrown, it?s not the throttle body, it?s a limit in the PCM someone missed.

  7. #47
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    Heres the thing.....The bypass is rarely closed in these logs...about .50v (.51-.53) on bypass position 1 is closed.
    It sometimes closes when first at WOT...but then reopens every time....its opening, and the TB closing is as commanded by the PCM.
    If the bypass is held closed, these big whipples actually build more boost at higher rpm.'
    Lots of airflow/tq/rationality/fuel pump things can make them shut down like this so finding the cause isn't easy sometimes.

  8. #48
    So here's a test I just did. I flipped the throttle body and it ran pretty fucking great. I don't think the hood will close. But the testing was pretty damn conclusive. It's the whipple POS throttle body. I got to about 6000 rpm before it started to close. And it didn't completely shut down till about 6500 rpm. That's over a 1000 rpm increase by just flipping the throttle body upside down. My thought is that the whipple inlet is pulling air from the top side, or the bottom side. I just didn't care enough to pay attention to which direction the blade is opening right now. I just know it was different direction. And the kenne bell TB won't fit apparently. At least that's what kenne bell said. But I might just get their throttle body and make an adapter to try and use it. I worry that the throttle body is going to be the same, and the problem is the design of the whipple inlet.
    So here's a datalog for your viewing pleasure. And maybe there's still another tuning parameter to adjust to try and command the throttle open longer. And another note, the throttle body motor is pretty damn hot. Hotter than the blower. I never noticed that before because it was tucked between the blower and the inlet.

    32.hpl31b.hpt

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by joeapple View Post
    "The biggest successes were replacing the throttle body, with the same whipple throttle body. That netted another 6 months of use" your post, if performance was acceptable for you for 6 months unless something changed !
    After about 6 months, it started to go into limp mode again. And I would try another tuner and just put the big 4.5 pulley back on. I just felt like after this amount of time, I can be the only one experiencing this problem. And there still might be something mechanically wrong. Or wiring could be damaged somewhere. I lowered the cradle out of the car some time ago just to check the harness around the back of the motor and to the trans.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by joeapple View Post
    I agree with 06300 seems you are not logging enough parameters to understand what your problems is. I asked you what this car was used for a reason, shows your intent. I would get a new laptop and log the suggested parameters. If you spent 1000s on tuners a decent laptop would be a good investment.
    I don't have the latest and greatest laptop, but it's still a decent laptop. About 2 years old i7 processor and ram maxed out. I don't seem to have problems with logging rates, except on dodge/chrysler.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie1134 View Post
    I don't have the latest and greatest laptop, but it's still a decent laptop. About 2 years old i7 processor and ram maxed out. I don't seem to have problems with logging rates, except on dodge/chrysler.
    I am a baffled you cannot get more channels and or lose resolution with a 2 year old laptop, I was struggling with intermittent connection issues with pids dropping out when i was street logging and my laptop would disconnect from the internet, once i figured out what was happening it I had already switched to usb c, my laptop is pretty new and has a c port but since started tethering my internet before logging I had no issues it works great. I wish I could help you, but I am learning myself. Its a learning curve for sure.

  12. #52
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    Funny it does now seem to point to a mechanical issue, so maybe I will eat my words from before about a weak motor. The fact that a new throttle body would fix the issue suggests a wear issue in the whipple throttle body, if it can do it day one then in theory it should last for its lifetime.

    I myself have a failed Whipple oval throttle body. I got a few invalid DTC codes, and it shut me down on the dyno during a pull with a A/B sensor error. Ordered a new one and its been fine since.

    There is a throttle body adapter kit for a stock throttle body, have you considered trying to run a hellcat style throttle body on that adapter plate? Plenty of 105MM throttle bodies out there nowadays, those seem to hold up ok, wouldnt think that would kill flow that badly, plenty of 1000whp+ setups with those 105's, and would bolt right up to the adapter Whipple supplies.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Funny it does now seem to point to a mechanical issue, so maybe I will eat my words from before about a weak motor. The fact that a new throttle body would fix the issue suggests a wear issue in the whipple throttle body, if it can do it day one then in theory it should last for its lifetime.

    I myself have a failed Whipple oval throttle body. I got a few invalid DTC codes, and it shut me down on the dyno during a pull with a A/B sensor error. Ordered a new one and its been fine since.

    There is a throttle body adapter kit for a stock throttle body, have you considered trying to run a hellcat style throttle body on that adapter plate? Plenty of 105MM throttle bodies out there nowadays, those seem to hold up ok, wouldnt think that would kill flow that badly, plenty of 1000whp+ setups with those 105's, and would bolt right up to the adapter Whipple supplies.
    I did the stock TB when I was first trying to figure this out. It pretty much immediately would go into limp mode with the stock TB. That is, I would go WOT and it would suck it closed. At least that's what I think is happening. I've had big power turbo cars push the throttle closed based on the direction of air on the inlet elbow. But that was 2000 hp territory.