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Thread: WOT Lambda delay

  1. #1
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    WOT Lambda delay

    Boosted Mustang application. No need for logs or tunes as this applies to pretty much all Fords.

    Every time you floor your pedal there's a delay between even going ino Power Enrichment. Power Enrichment Rate is how fast you go from Lambda 1 to lets say Lambda 0.8.

    Now if you let the throttle go it will first cut the fuel with DEFCO and go to Lambda 2.0 OL React After Deccel.
    After this event it MUST go to CL Stoich for a while and only then it will ever to OL Power Enrichment.

    The problem is it takes almost 1 full second between pressing the pedal to the floor and really going into Power Enrichment.

    Any ideas how to speed up the process?

    There are some new parameters under Power Enrichment. Are we sure that Power Delay is really a rate not a delay? It's set to 0.5 so if this is seconds it make sense.
    Torque is not an issue here.

    Thx
    Lambda delay.jpg
    PE delay.jpg

  2. #2
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    Usually if you max out torque management you will not transition into power enrichment right away. your saying torque is not an issue. so your describing LIKE LEAN TIP IN? I know i have all my WOT delay set at .5, there a couple other setting to help transition but i dont have access to my computer at the moment. different work site.. so your basically saying at WOT there is a delay/difference between when the commanded AFR target switches from 1 to the set value of .75 as an example....maybe unrelated but there are airflow filter multiplier and cylinder max multipliers and possible WOP=WOT settings lowering them. these are some of the things on 2011 up adjustment.. also Engine->Fuel->Cutoff, DFCO section.

    SCT has open-closed loop for open loop delay blending ramp they recommend it be set to .5 with a max of 1.9... the software contradicts itself. Example focus base is .25 If I load the value files for Kenne Bell, Magnuson, Procharger, etc. it sets the value to 1.0(zero Delay) with a max value of 1.9
    Last edited by mstang_man; 05-08-2019 at 09:43 AM. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner small tuner's Avatar
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    Enrichment rate control it

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small tuner View Post
    Enrichment rate control it
    Nope, it has no effect on delay. It control how fast it goes form 1 to 0.8 but not that stupid delay.
    Last edited by veeefour; 05-08-2019 at 04:25 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstang_man View Post
    Usually if you max out torque management you will not transition into power enrichment right away. your saying torque is not an issue. so your describing LIKE LEAN TIP IN? I know i have all my WOT delay set at .5, there a couple other setting to help transition but i dont have access to my computer at the moment. different work site.. so your basically saying at WOT there is a delay/difference between when the commanded AFR target switches from 1 to the set value of .75 as an example....maybe unrelated but there are airflow filter multiplier and cylinder max multipliers and possible WOP=WOT settings lowering them. these are some of the things on 2011 up adjustment.. also Engine->Fuel->Cutoff, DFCO section.

    SCT has open-closed loop for open loop delay blending ramp they recommend it be set to .5 with a max of 1.9... the software contradicts itself. Example focus base is .25 If I load the value files for Kenne Bell, Magnuson, Procharger, etc. it sets the value to 1.0(zero Delay) with a max value of 1.9
    Torque is within tolerance - no drastic IPC or ETC spikes. ETC matches Brake Torque - more less as it's turbo so controlling Load and Torque is difficult when is spools up.

    It's not lean, it goes a tad rich for a fraction of second but not sure why. It seems more problematic in boosted applications but I've seen it in N/A tunes as well.

    You floor it and it will not go to PE instantly- it hangs for about 0.5s at stoich and then it start transitioning into PE. The problem is when you want to go from a dig - when
    it finally starts transitioning into PE you are already at 7000 rpm in 1st gear which kills performance. I was ignoring this until now thinking that it has something to do
    with Traction Control but no, switched TC off and its still there.

    Interested in that SCT parameter - please post a screen in your free time. Thx
    Last edited by veeefour; 05-08-2019 at 04:26 PM.

  6. #6
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    Have you tried changing the pedal position and rpm that power enrichment happens at. If you kept those at 90% throttle and 6,500 rpm it will never use that table to enable power enrichment. Rather it will wait for the commanded lambda to override that and go into power enrichment that way

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Yup, tried that as well. It's always lowered in my tunes:

    PE pedal.jpg

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstang_man View Post
    SCT has open-closed loop for open loop delay blending ramp they recommend it be set to .5 with a max of 1.9... the software contradicts itself. Example focus base is .25 If I load the value files for Kenne Bell, Magnuson, Procharger, etc. it sets the value to 1.0(zero Delay) with a max value of 1.9
    This might be it:
    Lambda for reduction.jpg

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Have you tried testing power delay set to 0?

    "delay" with units of rate doesn't really make sense, so a labeling error is definitely possible.

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Do you have this table?

    enrich delay.jpg

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Yes I have, but it's zeroed from stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    This might be it:
    Lambda for reduction.jpg
    Isn't that target lamda in the event of torque reduction. The table isn't being used. It's not scaled to any ratio.

    It looks like a smaller fuel cylinder cutoff table.

    I've had VCT disable on quick shifts. I let off the throttle during a shift every time and wonder if this delay could have something to do with.

  13. #13
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    Screen shot looks like down shift torque reduction.

    Would need to see a log of a launch from a dig, or screen shot of the launch.
    Last edited by murfie; 05-09-2019 at 02:30 AM.

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    This is really a problem with low gears when you lose traction. Many things happen when TC kicks in:
    -knock retard/advance stops working
    -VCT schedule goes to Optimal Stability/Best Drive-ability(but you can work your way around it)
    -AFR does funny things delaying Power Enrichment.

    I'm fine with spark but I want AFR to stay where I want it to FFS. And there's that deccel AFR lean-out that delays PE even more. Frustrating.

    I'll try to massage torque relation a bit - see if this helps.

    P.S.
    I disabled all FUEL torque reductions but it still does what it does.

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Screen shot looks like down shift torque reduction.

    Would need to see a log of a launch from a dig, or screen shot of the launch.
    Will do later.

    But yes that one shows down shift but as noted every FUEL torque control is OFF but to no avail.

    Why it keeps leaning out and delaying PE?

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    Hm, just read infos about "enrichment rate".
    Maybe lowering the number will reduce delay too and will speed up the enrichment rate process, going from Stoich to Power Enrichment should be quicker then. (?)

    Saw some tunes with 0.05 λ/s instead of the OE 0.5 λ/s
    Last edited by nonnex; 05-16-2019 at 08:48 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonnex View Post
    Hm, just read infos about "enrichment rate".
    Maybe lowering the number will reduce delay too and will speed up the enrichment rate process, going from Stoich to Power Enrichment should be quicker then. (?)

    Saw some tunes with 0.05 λ/s instead of the OE 0.5 λ/s
    I never increase it as some would do - description is not correct about raising it with boost. I tried changing that value regarding that delay but to no avail.


    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    This might be it:
    Lambda for reduction.jpg
    I was able to verify that - indeed this is the lambda used in torque reduction enleanment. After changing it to 0.8 AFR goes to 0.8 while in TC torque reduction event.

    Now still fighting with that delay after TC event - it always goes to "React After Deccel" first, afterwards to STOICH and finaly re-entering Power Enrichment.

    But there's no deccel while TC kicks in as the tires are spinning and the pedal is welded to the floor. Plain stupid.

  18. #18
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonnex View Post
    Hm, just read infos about "enrichment rate".
    Maybe lowering the number will reduce delay too and will speed up the enrichment rate process, going from Stoich to Power Enrichment should be quicker then. (?)

    Saw some tunes with 0.05 λ/s instead of the OE 0.5 λ/s


    You have that backwards.

    A stock GT is set to 0.05

    I have mine raised to 0.5, and it definitely steepens the slope of the commanded EQ when entering power enrich.

  19. #19
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    I think it says "react./ after decel", reaction kinda covers both meaning it's getting fuel from what the transient tables are saying.

    You might want to try new O2 sensors, it can show that fuel source when its not getting reliable feedback from them.
    Last edited by murfie; 05-16-2019 at 11:27 PM.

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I think it says "react./ after decel", reaction kinda covers both meaning it's getting fuel from what the transient tables are saying.

    You might want to try new O2 sensors, it can show that fuel source when its not getting reliable feedback from them.
    Interesting - thx for the hint. Will investigate.

    BTW, both sensors are new - 20 cm after turbos.