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Thread: Wow did I mess up!

  1. #21
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    Just checked and his that is what is in the 2006 calibration for start correction angle. It?s not exact as HPT decides for its to change some values from what you put in. For example the 6000rpm line is supposed to be -0.6, I put that in and HPT changes it to -0.55.

  2. #22
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    There is a -20 degree offset on that parameter for 2004-2007 that I am going to assume HPT is NOT accounting for hence why they are showing it as some obscurely high number. Even if I look at the 2005 calibration it does not show as 75-80 degrees but much more closely to what I entered in your tune for 2006 values but that table is different from 2005 to 2006.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfoss1000 View Post
    Well I tried the tune you sent me.

    Started it up and it's very lopey at idle, and light to medium density blue smoke from the tailpipe.

    For fun I tried to modify the start angle correction table the 2003/05 settings...that made it significantly worse...almost stalled at idle.

    So, I set the ecm back to full 2003 stock....smooth and no smoke.

    There must be some difference in early vs late ecm that are tripping this sucker up.

    I think I'll be better off to leave it alone, or at least to work slowly from what I have instead of a wholesale change.


    Chay
    I know I?ve said it before, the 2003 ecm(cm845) doesn?t operate like a 2006(cm849) or the 2004.5-2005(cm848). What?s in the file I sent, as closely as possible are to the 2006 values, some tables in 2003 are not as large as they are in 2004.5-2007. I could show screenshots of engineering tables of it all and prove it.

    The difference is in how the ecm operates. It is best to just leave it alone, a few tweaks here and there and it?ll run just fine. Knock down pilot timing to start with.

  4. #24
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    Even looking at what HPT shows as min and max for the angle correction table is not what is in the real calibration as a min and max, HPT has -170 to 160 where the real calibration is -120 to 120

  5. #25
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    I guess that's where I'm having some trouble with this process.

    The HP Tuners stuff is not as refined as it should be in my opinion.

    I should, as a programmer, be able to understand and adjust the tables and KNOW what the result will be in the real world. HP Tuners software should be good enough to recognize the differences in the ecm types and allow the programmer to get what he/she wants out of the ecm without all the trial and error and hassle. If this was a gas engine, it would likely be blown up right now based on these types of issues.

    I'm not saying I can't screw up based on what I enter, but if I specify an injection timing, barring hitting limiters, it should be reproduced in the output of the ecm. I don't think that's the case, because if it was the case, it should run great with the 2006 numbers. HP Tuners software should be good enough to recognize the differences in the ecm types and allow the programmer to get what he/she wants out of the ecm.

    I'd say it's in the developmental stage. A bit disappointing.

    It is still a really good scanner, and worth the money. I'm also going to use it to tune some LQ4 GM V8s. I hope that is more refined. We'll see.

    Chay

  6. #26
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    The ecm does exactly what?s told to do within the confines of how it is programmed by Cummins to Chrysler/Fiats specifications. As a tuner, you enter in your desired changes and the ecms predefined programming takes care of what to do with those values.

    I agree HPT is not as refined as it should be but the Cummins powered dodge is also not its main target audience or focus, very little focus towards the Cummins powered dodge.

    HPT is nothing more than a tool to gain access to some tables and parameters that the engineers choose to give access to and interpret values within the calibration of the ecm as they understand it. There are errors and misinformation in what they give but the same can be said for the Cummins engineering side as well. Once again, the 2003 ecm is NOT a 2006 ecm. Vast differences here in how the operate and parameter values between the two. Do not assume because it?s a 2006 engine that a 2003 ecm should just be able to just recognize that fact and morph itself into a 2006 ecm and the world turns out perfect. Before diving too deep into things, do solid research before things really get out of control and you end up with a 6000 pound paper weight.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim P View Post
    The ecm does exactly what?s told to do within the confines of how it is programmed by Cummins to Chrysler/Fiats specifications. As a tuner, you enter in your desired changes and the ecms predefined programming takes care of what to do with those values.

    I agree HPT is not as refined as it should be but the Cummins powered dodge is also not its main target audience or focus, very little focus towards the Cummins powered dodge.

    HPT is nothing more than a tool to gain access to some tables and parameters that the engineers choose to give access to and interpret values within the calibration of the ecm as they understand it. There are errors and misinformation in what they give but the same can be said for the Cummins engineering side as well. Once again, the 2003 ecm is NOT a 2006 ecm. Vast differences here in how the operate and parameter values between the two. Do not assume because it?s a 2006 engine that a 2003 ecm should just be able to just recognize that fact and morph itself into a 2006 ecm and the world turns out perfect. Before diving too deep into things, do solid research before things really get out of control and you end up with a 6000 pound paper weight.
    I agree 100% with what you have said. How am I to specify timing if the numbers in the main/pilot timing table don't work the way anyone would assume they do? I didn't call the table main timing; HP Tuners did.

    What I mean is that if I open up a table, called main injection timing in HP Tuners, and enter a value, it should work the same for a 2003 or a 2006 based on the expert programming of the HP Tuners software creators. But, what I have is access to a table which isn't really main injection timing, its some table with values that do not directly correspond to the output values, at least for a 2003 ecm. Maybe they actually work for a 2004.5+, who knows. In other words, it's tuning in the dark. If I ask for 5 deg BTDC in the table, what will I get? Who knows! All I know is that if 5 deg is specified in the 2006 table, and in the 2003 table, it should output 5 deg in either case. But it doesn't.

    I understand I only paid $100 for the ecm access. It's probably worth it just for the quicker data logging function. It's not sold that way though, it's sold as a tuning solution. I expect it to work in a straight forward manner. It doesn't.


    Chay
    Last edited by cfoss1000; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:04 PM.

  8. #28
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    HP Tuners did not design or code the Cummins ecm, Cummins did, it functions as programmed and coded by Cummins. HP Tuners is nothing more than a tool to change parameter values. There are differences between how the ecm operates from 2003-2004 ecms to 2004.5-2007 to 2007.5-2009 to 2010-2012 to 2013+. There are correction tables that come into play under certain conditions that give different results from the otherwise normally used density based tables as well. Research, datalog, review and learn what?s happening in the logs and how everything ties together.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim P View Post
    HP Tuners did not design or code the Cummins ecm, Cummins did, it functions as programmed and coded by Cummins. HP Tuners is nothing more than a tool to change parameter values. There are differences between how the ecm operates from 2003-2004 ecms to 2004.5-2007 to 2007.5-2009 to 2010-2012 to 2013+. There are correction tables that come into play under certain conditions that give different results from the otherwise normally used density based tables as well. Research, datalog, review and learn what?s happening in the logs and how everything ties together.
    This seems to be a concept that many people misunderstand. Jim P is correct, HP Tuners didn't create a custom OS, nor does it flash a custom OS into the ECM. This goes for pretty much every application, except for the few custom OS's that HP Tuners offers for GM applications.
    Last edited by B00STJUNKY; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:25 PM.