FRPP2 Tune - audible knock

[Mustang]

Hello everyone, I finally bit the bullet and pieced together a completely stock GT350 (FRPP 2) kit, with the one exception being I'm using a steeda air filter (Think K&N). So all of the hardware matches the FRPP tune.

I used the FRPP2 strategy that I discovered on here, and I can tell it is much more aggressive at high loads/low RPMs - exactly what I wanted. But, now I have audible knock. I cannot hear it at speeds greater than ~3000 but I know better than using my ear.

The FRPP 2 is supposedly tuned for 91 octane, and that is what I have, but maybe it's just too aggressive. There are a lot of posts on Mustang6g from people that bought the entire kit (Including the procal tool) and they had audible knock as well.

I've read the coyote cookbook, and Greg Banish's "Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems" and I'm in the middle of reading his other book "Engine Management: Advance Tuning".

Unless I am getting it wrong, MBT is the optimal spark settings for torque, but the baseline tables are for where knock begins, right? I compared the stock tune to the FRPP2 tune, and the advance settings are more with the FRPP, as much as 9 degrees on one cell. But, it is not linear. I have read a few posts where people have also said that coyotes like it a bit rich. The FRPP has WOT lambda set at 0.835, but the 'cookbook recommends 0.820. Is that a good idea?

I suppose, since the knock is so bad I can hear it, I don't want to blow a hole through a piston while doing some high load, low RPM logging. I was thinking about adjusting the borderline tables down (retarding a few degrees) on the cells that are more advanced than stock. e.g. if stock is 5 degrees advance, and the FRPP is 9 degrees, then maybe try 7.

Is that a good way to go about it, or should I be looking at a different table? I'm not sure if the fueling will help with my knock at high load but low RPM, right? Because I'm not WOT when I hear the knock, just fairly heavy on the accelerator position. If I wanted to try and leave the spark advance alone, is there a way for me to command more fuel only on the higher-but-not-WOT cells?

Thank you for your thoughts - I'm doing my best to read up, but I get confused because there are so many tables and even appear to be different thought processes as far as which table should be edited.

[CCS86]

Baseline = MBT
Borderline = Knock threshold

Are the knock sensors disabled in that tune? I would personally never run that way.

[Mustang]

Thank you for the clarification, and for posting.

Nope the knock sensors are still turned on. They are even picking up knock. I have attached the tune that I got from here (Mine is similar, although I played around with the cold start idle stuff to make it quieter). I have some logs, but I don't know how to scrape the vin# so I don't want to post it. I have a few screenshots of the knock happening. I do notice my STFC and lambda doesn't appear to be very steady and at one knock event, lambda was more than 1.1, which seems odd to me. None of these are really power runs, although I did go WOT at a low RPM only until I heard the knock and then got off the throttle.

I don't think it is related, but I'm getting a P0315 MIL. I looked this up and apparently it is very common, even if one uses the ford pro-cal tool. I've messed around with resetting the KAM and the Crank Re-Learn, but thus far it hasn't went away. What I've read up on it is that it doesn't affect the way the car drives, it's one of those difficult to get rid of codes that go away after playing around with the reset procedure a few times.

[CCS86]

Without a log it's going to be pretty hard for anyone to help. Everybody's VINs are up here, so not sure what you are worried about. Your VIN is in the tune your posted too.

Your screenshots show that you are logging a LOT of parameters, which reduced resolution of data. I would try to narrow it way down. Here's a channel map of mine. It won't match your channels exactly, but you could load it up and take a screenshot, then build something similar with your available channels.

Somethings is definitely way screwy with your fueling. I would personally never run a K&N for multiple reasons (oil shed onto the MAF sensor, poor filtration, airflow disturbance at the MAF).

If you are continuing to get that P0315, I think you should fix it first. Knock is definitely tied to spark timing, which is tied to proper crankshaft timing.

[Mustang]

Thank you again, I guess I never thought about it that way (VINs). The tune is from a different FRPP tune, but I'll push mine up shortly. I will pair down the number of things I was logging, I did see that it was pretty lousy resolution. The FRPP 1 kit (Retains factory airbox) comes with a K&N filter, but the FRPP 2 does come with the GT350 paper filter. To eliminate that as the source of the problem, I'll swap it out for the logs I put up here with better resolution. Most of the time I run K&N's just because I don't have to buy paper filters over and over again - but I suppose it wouldn't be fair for me to "forget" that I have to keep buying cleaning fluid/oil so I might be stepping over nickels to save a penny.

The P0315 issue supposedly causes problems when revving above 4000 RPM, but there are a lot of people on here that could never get rid of it, so they removed the MIL for the code. The option to do a relearn is there in the VCM Scanner, and when I go through the motions, it said it worked (And I can rev over 4000 easily) but the MIL won't go away. Some threads about it on here said that older versions of the SCT was able to reset it successfully, but I don't have an SCT. I do have ForScan which can clear DTCs, so I will try to clear it from that tool.

Thank you again, I really appreciate it!

[decipha]

logged your map points and see which one is causing the knock, reference the load and rpm and just simply remove 4 degrees in that cell.

[CCS86]

Thank you again, I guess I never thought about it that way (VINs). The tune is from a different FRPP tune, but I'll push mine up shortly. I will pair down the number of things I was logging, I did see that it was pretty lousy resolution. The FRPP 1 kit (Retains factory airbox) comes with a K&N filter, but the FRPP 2 does come with the GT350 paper filter. To eliminate that as the source of the problem, I'll swap it out for the logs I put up here with better resolution. Most of the time I run K&N's just because I don't have to buy paper filters over and over again - but I suppose it wouldn't be fair for me to "forget" that I have to keep buying cleaning fluid/oil so I might be stepping over nickels to save a penny.

The P0315 issue supposedly causes problems when revving above 4000 RPM, but there are a lot of people on here that could never get rid of it, so they removed the MIL for the code. The option to do a relearn is there in the VCM Scanner, and when I go through the motions, it said it worked (And I can rev over 4000 easily) but the MIL won't go away. Some threads about it on here said that older versions of the SCT was able to reset it successfully, but I don't have an SCT. I do have ForScan which can clear DTCs, so I will try to clear it from that tool.

Thank you again, I really appreciate it!

If you are having issues with crank relearn in HPT I would email support and create a ticket. If they don't know, they can't fix it.

[Mustang]

I contacted support and they were very helpful and very quick, but ultimately I solved the problem while trying to grab them the logs they needed to look at. I posted my "how I fixed it" response to another thread a few minutes ago.

Nevertheless, attached is a log of varying conditions. I did some very brief WOT runs, but also a few gradual progressions of heavy throttle/high load/low speed so that the ECU didn't go into open loop. I saw the most knock there, at one point it was pulling almost 3 degrees of timing. I did have to add a few PIDs to the list provided earlier because the generic "KR" PID doesn't work, instead I had to capture it by each cylinder. Interestingly enough, while one cylinder was actually adding spark, the other was pulling spark.

I don't have the ford performance oil air separator yet - some of the guys say that Ford Racing recommended it to reduce knock with this kit (Even though it is not included). I can say after swapping the throttle body (The FRPP tune is for the GT350 throttle body I put on) the internals to the intake manifold is coated with a fine layer of oil, so there is definitely blow-by on the engine (Others have said the coyotes do have a decent amount of blow by). I'm hoping the OAS will allow me to run with the timing I have now, but my log tonight was in ideal situations for no knock, it was cool (in the 60's) and no humidity. When it gets up to 110 later this summer, I think the propensity to knock will be much worse.

Anyways, here is the log & tune. Thanks for looking it over.

[veeefour]

Yes, Coyote will blow oil trough PCV like no other engine it the same class - we did custom turbo system for 5.0 and 3.7 and 3.7 will not vapor at all while 5.0 vapes a bit.
Every intake we pull out of either new or high millage Coyote has a decent amount of oil inside - nothing to worry about. This is how the PCV system is designed - works way better with vacuum.

However if you PCV vapes like a cigar you definitely have something wrong with your engine - 9 out of 10 it's a broken piston ring-land 9 out of 10 cyl no 8th.

[Mustang]

I'm just shocked at how must there was for a N/A car. I have 25k miles on her, and she runs good and doesn't burn oil/smoke, but wow I'm shocked. Then again, now that I think about it, a CTS I worked on literally had liquid oil pooled in the intake manifold, supposedly those GM "HFV6" engines would run through a qt of oil every 1000 miles fairly regularly. I think GM ran a very loose ring pack on them.

[veeefour]

For N/A you just need a catch can - problem solved. Be sure to get a quality one as this literally can be made worse with cheap ones.

In F/I applications this could be problematic especially with turbo. You need either high end catch can or breathers - breathers have some downsides.

Keeping PCV with boost requires some serious tinkering but this is what I prefer.

[dsblk93gt]

How is it going with that FRPP 2 tune? Any updates?