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Thread: which direction on torque tables

  1. #1

    which direction on torque tables

    So we had a timing pulled above 6k (15 degrees). The eng tq went above max tq. So I added 10% to the torque tables from 5600 and up. Next pass still pulled timing but both the eng tq and the max tq went up together from like 440s to 520ish. The eng tq still passed max tq so I bumped it another 15% and the car started to pull throttle and timing. I bumped it another 10% and the car pulled more throttle and still pulled timing. The upsetting thing was on this last pass the eng tq didn't pass the max tq but the estimated tq is considerable lower then both.

    I went back to the first tune and tried to go backwards on torque tables. Car pulled about 20 degrees of timing.


    So I'm looking for suggestions of which direction I should continue in. Should I keep pulling from the table or go back to adding. I'm thinking about going back to adding since the eng tq was finally below max tq.

    Car is a cammed LT1

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    are you considering the cam angles in your adjustments
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  3. #3
    I wanted to wrap up the torque table issue before I play with the cam timing

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
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    What he is referring too is in the torque model editor you can adjust cam timing for the given Tq model.. factory form retards the camshaft for EGR style effect and must set cam angle accordingly.. default on Tq model is 0... if adjusting Tq model without changing that it’s not doing much good

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  5. #5
    I always adjust for different cam angles when I adjust the torque maps. I do 0-15 degrees just to cover all bases.

    Right now I'm getting a weird issue when I add the the torque tables the max tq goes up but the eng tq follows it right up there. The car is thinking its making more power then it is and is now pulling throttle too.

  6. #6
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    To the best of my knowledge.......

    Max Torque and Engine Torque do go up together as I believe they both use the VT tables and Airflow(among other values) to calculate their value. Max Torque needs to be below Peak Torque or it is limiting. I wouldn't worry too much about Max Torque and Engine Torque being close, they should follow each other to some degree. The way I understand it is that Max Torque is the maximum value the ECU wants to see, if engine torque is close to this value it will not be limited, but if it exceeds this value the ECU may limit power. At the same time, if Max Torque gets too close or exceeds Peak Torque, it will limit power. If your airflow model(VVE or MAF) is too far off and causing Engine Torque to greatly exceed Maximum Torque then you need to address that area first.

    Did you increase your Driver Demand tables in the WOT areas when you increased your Virtual Torque? Driver Demand tells the ECU what the driver wants. If you are not requesting enough torque from the gas pedal due to the values being too low, you will get limited as well.
    Last edited by TriPinTaZ; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:59 PM.
    I've tuned a few things...

  7. #7
    Max tq has been under 100 ft/lbs of the peak tq. No issues there. The car will pull timing as soon as the eng tq passes max tq. Right after 6500 every time. I'll add to the VTT and eventually it goes from pulling timing to throttle. Which is more several in the ecms eyes?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASON11WS6 View Post
    Max tq has been under 100 ft/lbs of the peak tq. No issues there. The car will pull timing as soon as the eng tq passes max tq. Right after 6500 every time. I'll add to the VTT and eventually it goes from pulling timing to throttle. Which is more several in the ecms eyes?


    Engine Torque shouldn't pass Max Torque. If you have to increase your VT tables to make it so that Max Torque is always above Engine Torque, you likely need to add to your Driver Demand table at the 95%-100% area so that it will actually request the power. I would try to put the VT back to where it was pulling throttle and not timing, but then increase your DD tables at WOT by 10% and see if it improves/corrects the throttle closing.

    I assume you have all of your Torque Limiter tables maxed out and increased the TCS allowed value by the % of additional TQ you're making.
    Last edited by TriPinTaZ; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:40 PM.
    I've tuned a few things...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TriPinTaZ View Post
    Engine Torque shouldn't pass Max Torque. If you have to increase your VT tables to make it so that Max Torque is always above Engine Torque, you likely need to add to your Driver Demand table at the 95%-100% area so that it will actually request the power. I would try to put the VT back to where it was pulling throttle and not timing, but then increase your DD tables at WOT by 10% and see if it improves/corrects the throttle closing.

    I assume you have all of your Torque Limiter tables maxed out and increased the TCS allowed value by the % of additional TQ you're making.


    I get that but every time I try to raise the max tq the eng tq raises with it and eventually the car pulls throttle instead of timing or both. What's worse? Throttle or timing be pulled? All torque limiter tables were modified as well so those aren't an issue. I guess what I really need to know is should I just keep adding to the VTT untill this goes away? It just seems to get worse at some point.

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    try something for me real quick. put your VTT all back to stock go to your Fueling section / Open Loop and Copy your IVT Gain E table and paste it to A - D.

    see what that does for your timing retard issue.

  11. #11
    just tried it and got the same result. Everything is fine until the eng tq passed the max tq usually around 6250 and then it pulls timing around 6550-6600 everytime. The only time it doesn't pull timing is when I had the vtt tables turned up significantly. But then it was just pulling throttle. It almost feels like its hitting the rev limiter but that is set around 7250. I tried to lower the vtt tables and raise them considerable and nothing. Every time the eng tq passes the max tq.

  12. #12
    Finally got the eng tq to sit below the max tq and it still pulled timing. Geez, these genv's

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I am not seeing high RPM timing issues, but I do see 0 "knock" up to 4100 RPMs then at 4100 it shows about 14 degrees all at once.
    Coincidentally, this is the same RPM that IVT flips from 430 degrees to -400.
    I was able to get that to stop by setting the IVT gain to 1.0 in the -40 / 100 kpa cell.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JASON11WS6 View Post
    Finally got the eng tq to sit below the max tq and it still pulled timing. Geez, these genv's
    What did you have to do to get eng tq below max tq?

  15. #15
    I raised the driver demand tables a bit and smoothed out the virtual torque tables and it seemed to get everything in order. Car still pulls timing though. Everything is lined up with nothing sticking out of line.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JASON11WS6 View Post
    I raised the driver demand tables a bit and smoothed out the virtual torque tables and it seemed to get everything in order. Car still pulls timing though. Everything is lined up with nothing sticking out of line.
    Thanks for the response. I have been dealing with a somewhat similar scenario where my car is pulling timing but mine is doing it at idle. I added a turbo and bigger injectors and this is my 1st time with HP tuners. I know its frowned upon but I just raised the minimum spark in those areas as a temporary fix until I can figure out what tweak I need to make.

  17. #17
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    I am working on some things testing out some stuff trying to understand the torque model on these newer gen 5 stuff better yet. Anyways I strongly believe at this point before I 100% verify it that screwing with the torque model/coefficients themselves is the completely wrong way to raise the "Max Torque". Messing with coefficients from what I've seen raises the max torque but raises actual torque also at the same time, so that's not worth a crap! I have a good feeling that the answers lie just in the airflow models.
    Last edited by KLUG'S SS; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:09 AM.
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  18. #18
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLUG'S SS View Post
    I am working on some things testing out some stuff trying to understand the torque model on these newer gen 5 stuff better yet. Anyways I strongly believe at this point before I 100% verify it that screwing with the torque model/coefficients themselves is the completely wrong way to raise the "Max Torque". Messing with coefficients from what I've seen raises the max torque but raises actual torque also at the same time, so that's not worth a crap! I have a good feeling that the answers lie just in the airflow models.
    VVE. not a secret. my torque tables are stock.

  19. #19
    Higgs you have to be right. Adjust the airflow and the VVE tables together and the rest of the torque model should fall into place. I'm sure it's not exactly that easy but I'll be doing that from here on out. I keep hearing how much more important the VVE tables are on these Gen V motors.

  20. #20
    I’ve yet to touch VTT tables as it runs just fine with tuned VvE table. How much is there to gain with VTT changes?