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Thread: Question about "indicated torque"

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Yes, but keep in mind OP is asking about GT500, they aren't autos, unless converted.

    A locked converter should not slip, or at least not aftermarket ones, not sure on stockers. They're locked to stop slippage that occurs in any torque converter, if they're slipping, they're not working correctly.
    Was quoting Murphy saying autos are strange.

    A locked converter slips in Ford's strategies you have tables for it. Not much 20 to 5 rpm - it's done to soften the ride.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Was quoting Murphy saying autos are strange.

    A locked converter slips in Ford's strategies you have tables for it. Not much 20 to 5 rpm - it's done to soften the ride.
    Oh, ok.
    I'm sure it would make locking less noticeable, I assume you could make it either locked, or not, like aftermarket ones are?

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Oh, ok.
    I'm sure it would make locking less noticeable, I assume you could make it either locked, or not, like aftermarket ones are?
    Ford does not lock converter like on off switch - it locks gradually usually starts with 300-400rpm of slip and decreases to whatever slip is commanded while locked.
    Locked it slips 5 to 20 rpm but not all the time as this would cook the converter like a french fry. Of course speaking of STOCK calibration as you can tune it however you want.
    You can tune high stall like a stock one - no need to lock it permanently however some aftermarket converter lock-up clutches will not tolerate much slippage.

    Stock TCC is normally locked believe or not it's hard to move it by hand while aftermarket TCC's are normally open and will spin freely.

    Slipping TCC partially at a rate of 5 to 20 rpm while locked helps to reduce drive train clunk and NVH.

  4. #24
    Advanced Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Mine makes around 960rwhp, torque tables/inverse are almost stock, only slightly adjusted for drivibility. I know for a fact that it's making way more torque than stock, and it works fine.

    It "works fine" because the relationship between load and torque isn't meaningfully changed. Putting a bunch more blower on a car doesn't increase the amount of TQ / load, it increases the load.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    It "works fine" because the relationship between load and torque isn't meaningfully changed. Putting a bunch more blower on a car doesn't increase the amount of TQ / load, it increases the load.
    that being said, then the load in the inverse just needs to match the indicated torque table is was your saying?

  6. #26
    Is it possible different ECU handle the MAF data differently? On mine, messing with the MAF to correct fueling (with correct injector data) just messed with drivability. Wheel torque error was extremely high. Messing with torque tables could help but I never got it perfect. Went back to stock MAF and torque tables and messed with low & high Injectors to get fueling correct. This gave good drivability and low torque error. I used a spreadsheet by CCS86 to adjust torque tables slightly and torque error was reduced further and drivability improved some. Using stock torque tables with inflated MAF just caused major problems for me. Torque output looks for the load required. Torque/inverse. If MAF is messed with than load is wrong so torque would have to be wrong? What confuses me is reading the stock file that had a Edge tune on it had zero adjustments to air system and load with failed MAF however inverse was adjusted with stock torque table. Maybe because boarder line and mbt was changed?

    My brain is hurting thinking about this again 😭

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    It "works fine" because the relationship between load and torque isn't meaningfully changed. Putting a bunch more blower on a car doesn't increase the amount of TQ / load, it increases the load.
    Oh yes, increasing inlet pressure makes more torque and load, this is how power is made. This increased load requires more air, hence the need for a larger maf tube.

  8. #28
    Advanced Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Oh yes, increasing inlet pressure makes more torque and load, this is how power is made. This increased load requires more air, hence the need for a larger maf tube.


    You are missing my point.

    The TQ tables describe a nearly linear relationship between torque and load ( torque / load = constant). That is why you, and most likely everyone just needs to extend the torque table, not meaningfully "change" it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    You are missing my point.

    The TQ tables describe a nearly linear relationship between torque and load ( torque / load = constant). That is why you, and most likely everyone just needs to extend the torque table, not meaningfully "change" it.
    Are you meaning expand or raise the load in the torque table?

  10. #30
    Advanced Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Are you meaning expand or raise the load in the torque table?


    Like this:

    TQ scale.png

    Certain things could allow higher torque production, for a given load, but a blower isn't one of them.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    The DD table is representation of wheel torque, or its suppose to be with out limits/ reductions. The dyno numbers you get at different steady state pedal positions should match, if fords torque estimate algorithm gets the right information from your calibration.

    the manuals represent a dyno graph well, the autos are stranger, they command the peak torque from the engine, then the TCC controls the torque going through the trans to the wheels, achieving the DD request.
    That helps a little bit with understanding the torque base model. So DD is wheel torque that possibly could be populated from Dyno results? The torque model tables are values at MBT??? Would this be the scheduled torque? Engine brake torque? Is this calculated from actual air flow etc? IPC errors seem to be happy when scheduled TQ> ETC > then Engine brake torque. Just trying to get a better sense of the logic. Thanks!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSlo View Post
    That helps a little bit with understanding the torque base model. So DD is wheel torque that possibly could be populated from Dyno results? The torque model tables are values at MBT??? Would this be the scheduled torque? Engine brake torque? Is this calculated from actual air flow etc? IPC errors seem to be happy when scheduled TQ> ETC > then Engine brake torque. Just trying to get a better sense of the logic. Thanks!
    DD is the wheel torque the driver wants, not necessarily what they are going to get. Limits and IPC.

    To me it is a fools errand, as the output from the algorithm the ecu uses to determine the engines torque output does not care what your dyno says, to the ecu that's the torque being generated. Engine brake torque.

    Putting an external wide band in your exhaust and setting the WOT lambda table to the value it reads and thinking you did something to correct the ecu would be similar to populating the DD with dyno numbers.

    In a perfect scenario, DD torque would be exactly what the dyno says is happening at the wheel. In reality they shouldn't be too far off from each other, but I would favor what the ecu is out putting as that's what matters to it.

    Schedule torque is the demanded torque + the MBT for idle. At idle spark is usually not at MBT, some torque is reserved for idle control. Demand torque/engine brake torque should go to 0, yet the engine still produces torque to keep it idling. When the engine brake torque starts to go over scheduled torque you get IPC wheel torque error. There is more torque being made at the wheel than the driver, or something else wants there to be, even accounting for idle. This could be true(out if control TB), or the a part of the calibration could be wrong causing the ECU to over estimate engine brake torque.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Like this:

    TQ scale.png

    Certain things could allow higher torque production, for a given load, but a blower isn't one of them.
    Yes, I figured you meant raising the torque values on the table.
    When a larger maf tube is installed, the torque the ecu is seeing is taken down a good bit, depending on tube diameter. So there's not much need in raising those values a lot, since the ecu doesn't know the engine is ingesting more air, and making more torque, and that the engine is under more load. In other words, actual load the engine is under is higher than the ecu is reading.

  14. #34
    I think it might not be so simple, A blower and the setup depending on application may alter the operating parameters at a given load. if the blower at a specified load value now introduces more heat and limits timing or effects combustion stability there could be a torque loss at the wheel compared to what the calibration expects due to being further from best torque or not accounting for new parastic losses.

    if your rescaling a NA OS you need to consider both. if you have a OS that already accounts for parasitic loss watch temps and final timing to see if you might want to pull a couple percent or add a bit in the existing load ranges.

    if you over estimate the torque the pedal can feel dead, the ecu increases load to slowly -

  15. #35
    MAF should be irelivent if you have it calibrated. If not you need to put away the torque tables and do it first.

  16. #36
    Advanced Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superman07 View Post
    I think it might not be so simple, A blower and the setup depending on application may alter the operating parameters at a given load. if the blower at a specified load value now introduces more heat and limits timing or effects combustion stability there could be a torque loss at the wheel compared to what the calibration expects due to being further from best torque or not accounting for new parastic losses.

    if your rescaling a NA OS you need to consider both. if you have a OS that already accounts for parasitic loss watch temps and final timing to see if you might want to pull a couple percent or add a bit in the existing load ranges.

    if you over estimate the torque the pedal can feel dead, the ecu increases load to slowly -
    Depends what kind of blower as they can behave differently - centri and turbo are blow-trough PD is acting like N/A.

  17. #37
    Advanced Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Yes, I figured you meant raising the torque values on the table.
    When a larger maf tube is installed, the torque the ecu is seeing is taken down a good bit, depending on tube diameter. So there's not much need in raising those values a lot, since the ecu doesn't know the engine is ingesting more air, and making more torque, and that the engine is under more load. In other words, actual load the engine is under is higher than the ecu is reading.


    You keep conflating MAF calibration and torque tables. They are separate. If you put on a different MAF housing, you must match it with a correct calibration. This has nothing to do with torque tables.



    Quote Originally Posted by superman07 View Post
    MAF should be irelivent if you have it calibrated. If not you need to put away the torque tables and do it first.

    Exactly.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Depends what kind of blower as they can behave differently - centri and turbo are blow-trough PD is acting like N/A.
    Like NA with a massive throttle to justify the airflow.