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Thread: Question about "indicated torque"

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    Question about "indicated torque"

    Working on a 2012 gt500 file and getting the Throttle body dialed in for better drivability/throttle control. I understand tuning the torque and inverse tables. my question is let say if the car makes more torque than the oem file shows, does the "indicated torque" table require modifying first, then match inverse tables? or just match the inverse tables to the original indicated torque to match the new load?

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    Make changes to the torque table, then use the calculator to populate the inverse table.

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    How do i populate the cells for the indicated torque table with the actual number the vehicle is producing is my question?

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    You don't, they don't correlate especially if you have a larger maf tube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    You don't, they don't correlate especially if you have a larger maf tube.


    What would a MAF tube size have to do with torque table to torque production correlation?

    A MAF housing and transfer function match to give an accurate airmass flow rate signal. This is completely independent of torque table values.

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    The maf tube measures airflow. If you install a larger tube, it's not accurately measuring air anymore. You install a larger tube to slow the air down, so the sensor doesn't max out. More air is still going in, but it's not being counted accurately, you have taken it down a notch, how much it's being taken down depends on the diameter of the tube it's placed in.
    Air ingested by the engine is directly related to torque production, more air in (&fuel of course)= more torque. torque will go up with the larger maf tube, but the air isn't being counted, so there's no need in the torque table going up, since the ecu doesn't know more air is going in, and torque is going up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Air ingested by the engine is directly related to torque production, more air in (&fuel of course)= more torque. torque will go up with the larger maf tube, but the air isn't being counted, so there's no need in the torque table going up, since the ecu doesn't know more air is going in, and torque is going up.
    Correct, wrong MAF=wrong everything in those cars.

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    So then how does one put the correct "numbers" in for the indicated torque table prior to tuning the inverse tables? Do i use steady state data from my dyno or is there a PID that is actual torque as seen by the ECU?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    The maf tube measures airflow. If you install a larger tube, it's not accurately measuring air anymore. You install a larger tube to slow the air down, so the sensor doesn't max out. More air is still going in, but it's not being counted accurately, you have taken it down a notch, how much it's being taken down depends on the diameter of the tube it's placed in.
    Air ingested by the engine is directly related to torque production, more air in (&fuel of course)= more torque. torque will go up with the larger maf tube, but the air isn't being counted, so there's no need in the torque table going up, since the ecu doesn't know more air is going in, and torque is going up.



    Again, you are talking about an issue completely independent to what the OP is asking.

    Obviously the MAF housing and MAF transfer function need to match. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of modifying / tuning vehicles. Nobody is asking about that though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Again, you are talking about an issue completely independent to what the OP is asking.

    Obviously the MAF housing and MAF transfer function need to match. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of modifying / tuning vehicles. Nobody is asking about that though.

    I agree. The ETC calibration is something that i want clarification on. So what is your take on it then (my original question)

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    You asked about Torque tables, not ETC. Again, different topics.

    I don't know that there is any god way to take dyno data and populate torque tables. The torque tables represent something you cant measure: torque produced at MBT timing, and normalized conditions, with no losses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmstekguy View Post
    So then how does one put the correct "numbers" in for the indicated torque table prior to tuning the inverse tables? Do i use steady state data from my dyno or is there a PID that is actual torque as seen by the ECU?
    You need a load dyno with some kind of output like analog 0-5V lets say 0V is 0Nm and 5V is 1000Nm. Datalog, populate, inverse. There's no other way around it if you want to do it like Ford does.

    The other way is to guesstimate it until ETC torque follows brake torque which is what we are doing currently.

    Ever wondered why it takes automakers months until the software is 100% done? And customer wants you to tune shanghai twin turd in 2h LOL
    Last edited by veeefour; 08-13-2019 at 03:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Again, you are talking about an issue completely independent to what the OP is asking.

    Obviously the MAF housing and MAF transfer function need to match. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of modifying / tuning vehicles. Nobody is asking about that though.
    No, as I said, torque produced is a function of air ingested, what measures air? The maf sensor. If more air is going in, more torque is produced, but the ecu isn't seeing correct torque, since air going in isn't measured correctly. So, if you're on a dyno, and the engine is producing X amount of torque, it will look wrong, since more air is going in the motor than what the maf sensor says, or in other words, more torque is being made than the maf sensor thinks possible.
    If he reads torque, & puts it into the torque table, with a really big maf tube, it will be totally wrong.

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    The DD table is representation of wheel torque, or its suppose to be with out limits/ reductions. The dyno numbers you get at different steady state pedal positions should match, if fords torque estimate algorithm gets the right information from your calibration.

    the manuals represent a dyno graph well, the autos are stranger, they command the peak torque from the engine, then the TCC controls the torque going through the trans to the wheels, achieving the DD request.
    Last edited by murfie; 08-14-2019 at 04:20 AM.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    The DD table is representation of wheel torque, or its suppose to be. The dyno numbers you get at different steady state pedal positions should match, if fords torque estimate algorithm gets the right information from your calibration.

    the manuals represent a dyno graph well, the autos are stranger, they command the peak torque from the engine, then the TCC controls the torque going through the trans to the wheels, achieving the DD request.
    100% due to converter slip and multiplication. Locked converter slips as well.

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    Basically the ecu works from the wheel to the engine, the opposite of how people think about it.
    "We can never be right, we can only be sure that we are wrong"- feynman

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    No, as I said, torque produced is a function of air ingested, what measures air? The maf sensor. If more air is going in, more torque is produced, but the ecu isn't seeing correct torque, since air going in isn't measured correctly. So, if you're on a dyno, and the engine is producing X amount of torque, it will look wrong, since more air is going in the motor than what the maf sensor says, or in other words, more torque is being made than the maf sensor thinks possible.
    If he reads torque, & puts it into the torque table, with a really big maf tube, it will be totally wrong.


    Feel free to keep talking about MAF transfer function tuning. It's just not what the OP asked about. Not sure why you are stuck on that.

    Even if the MAF function was off, the fuel trims would sort it out and the dyno would read the same torque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Feel free to keep talking about MAF transfer function tuning. It's just not what the OP asked about. Not sure why you are stuck on that.

    Even if the MAF function was off, the fuel trims would sort it out and the dyno would read the same torque.
    He asked about the car making more torque than the oem file shows, torque is directly connected to the amount of air injested, as I said. If the measured amount of air going in is dead on, no worries, if it's off at all, you can't use torque output from a dyno to dial torque in. A larger maf tube will cheat the computer into thinking less air is going in, (hence the reason larger maf tubes) so the ecu thinks less air (torque), and tunes accordingly. If you try to input actual torque readings, it won't work, since the ecu isn't working with real torque anymore.
    Most GT500's have larger maf tubes installed for this purpose, there are several sizes, more power means a larger maf tube is required. Mine makes around 960rwhp, torque tables/inverse are almost stock, only slightly adjusted for drivibility. I know for a fact that it's making way more torque than stock, and it works fine. Putting larger numbers in the torque table will make the ecu hit all kindsa limits, done been there & done all that.
    Now, if OP has a stock maf tube, and stock maf cal, he's all good, input dyno torque adjustments & roll on, but most GT500's have larger maf's installed to keep maf from maxxing out the ecu input, and torque is off, so you can't use real world dyno torque numbers, as the ecu isn't using real world torque numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmstekguy View Post
    So then how does one put the correct "numbers" in for the indicated torque table prior to tuning the inverse tables? Do i use steady state data from my dyno or is there a PID that is actual torque as seen by the ECU?
    There is no torque sensor at all, the ecu has no idea how much torque your motor is making. It's all inferred by the amount of air coming in, this is why the air mass is measured. It uses torque to determine fuel calcs & amount of air to input to get the required torque output.

    If you have stock maf tube, for sure leave the torque tables/inverse stock & roll. If you have a larger maf tube, make sure the cal is spot on, maybe adjust torque tables slightly to dial them in, but even then, doubtful they need adjusting much.

    What power level is the car at?
    Last edited by MRRPMBRP; 08-14-2019 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    100% due to converter slip and multiplication. Locked converter slips as well.
    Yes, but keep in mind OP is asking about GT500, they aren't autos, unless converted.

    A locked converter should not slip, or at least not aftermarket ones, not sure on stockers. They're locked to stop slippage that occurs in any torque converter, if they're slipping, they're not working correctly.