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Thread: TCC max and min question...

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner devildog9999's Avatar
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    Just out of curiousity, can you post up what TCC settings you are using David?
    Regal GS Site Owner / HPT Moderator / FTV6 Mod

  2. #22
    Advanced Tuner louvered97gtp's Avatar
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    hi guys, Are the apply release speeds in torque readings I imagine? If so... my tables wont allow me to enter a mumber higher than 256, while I noticed MMGT1's inputed figures went up to 412. Do I have this setting limited somewhere else?
    My last run I logged up to 344 trans torque in the 1/8 on my 99GTP
    I'm starting to play with and learn trans settings. What is TCC? Torque converter circuit??
    Last, I havent found any explanations of what this TCC does when it's locked vs unlocked. Does it unlock to allow next upshift/dwnshift? Can someone help explain or link me to a thread that does explain? I've not been able to find anything that explains this.
    Sorry for the ignorance, this HPT software opened up pandora's box.
    thanks,
    99GTP: Flowmasters, ZZP Power log & Ported rear, 9.5:1, Bored over .010, removed balance shaft, Dbl roller chain, Intense S1X, custom ported heads, 45#inj., 105lb springs, 1.7 rockers, A103's, 180-stat, Gen V swap, 97 Cadillac TB & Custom machined alum. spacer, 95 GTP Hood louvers
    97GTP: Stock engine, 95 GTP Hood louvers

  3. #23
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    Under trans-->Auto TCC-->Apply/Release Speed: This table is "SPEED" referenced, not torque. Not having the TCC lock will cost you in fuel mileage, usually 1-2mpg from what I've seen on the boards here but have not tested this myself. TCC is the Torque converter, well the control of it. Setting the MAX to 100 and the min to 55 in the end was the sweet spot for me. When the converter locks what is happening is your engine and trans are turning at a 1 to 1 ratio. With it unlocked, the engine is turning slightly faster(slipping really) for comfort. If this locks too low, the car will feel like your towing a bus, if you get what I mean...I have a really good Apply/Release table if you'd like to try the values??

    Paul

    PS: I use the metric system, "I am Canadian" 'eh...........hahahahaha
    You are using Imperial, same speed in the end.
    Last edited by MMGT1; 04-26-2008 at 10:07 PM.

  4. #24
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    I wouldn't mind taking a look at your settings to try out in my wifes GA!
    If you don't mind posting them.

  5. #25
    Advanced Tuner louvered97gtp's Avatar
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    Hey Paul, I'd appreciate it if you can share your changes so I can start playing with mine and see what the difference is. This will help me understand it a bit better. So your inputs are in metric? KM/H? I'd need to convert thse figures to imperial right?
    Thanks for your explanation. It was right on the money and helped me and the other guys on our board understand much better.
    If you don't mind emailing me the file, or post, whichever you like.


    Thanks Paul.

    Steve
    Last edited by louvered97gtp; 04-29-2008 at 01:14 AM.
    99GTP: Flowmasters, ZZP Power log & Ported rear, 9.5:1, Bored over .010, removed balance shaft, Dbl roller chain, Intense S1X, custom ported heads, 45#inj., 105lb springs, 1.7 rockers, A103's, 180-stat, Gen V swap, 97 Cadillac TB & Custom machined alum. spacer, 95 GTP Hood louvers
    97GTP: Stock engine, 95 GTP Hood louvers

  6. #26
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    You don't have to convert anything from metric. Just change the settings on how you view your file and you can use the metric settings!
    It is under Tools>Options>Default Units

  7. #27
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    Attachment 11931

    Now be careful with this. My car has a 560 cam and heads, intake, headers etc...

    This will shift at 6600 RPM and trans settings reflect the solid mounts in the car as well. This would be good for comparisons only!! MAF has been changed to work with 36lb injectors and injector set up is 4.3 instead of 3.xx

    Paul
    Last edited by MMGT1; 04-28-2008 at 12:24 AM.

  8. #28
    Advanced Tuner louvered97gtp's Avatar
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    All i'd be doing is copying the trans "auto TCC" section. I'd like to slowly test these settings out until I understand them. This will be on my fully built 99 as listed in my sig. below. I'm currently shifting at 5800 but was slowly inching closer to 6800 as my max shift speed as I get more comfortable with my next higher increments and what the car feels like.

    thank you Paul
    99GTP: Flowmasters, ZZP Power log & Ported rear, 9.5:1, Bored over .010, removed balance shaft, Dbl roller chain, Intense S1X, custom ported heads, 45#inj., 105lb springs, 1.7 rockers, A103's, 180-stat, Gen V swap, 97 Cadillac TB & Custom machined alum. spacer, 95 GTP Hood louvers
    97GTP: Stock engine, 95 GTP Hood louvers

  9. #29
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    This is for Russ K:

    I noticed you said to raise the Min TCC Duty Cycle to 50 for the entire chart. Well being that its locking up faster wouldn't that put more wear/stress on the lockup solenoid? I was noticing granny like TCC lockups when I had the stock table running with my northstar. However I bumped the table up 3% more from stock and it most certainly helped. I am just worried about raising it up so much higher that it could cause damage to the lockup solenoid over time?

    As of right now I have completely disabled 3rd gear TCC lockup by by setting the engage speed at 255mph and the disengage at 254mph. I did not care for the TCC to be locking up every 3 seconds while I was cruising in the city. Right now my 4th gear TCC lockup engages at 48mph however I think I am going to lower it down some more.
    2000 Buick Regal GSE Ported Gen III SC with 3.0” Pulley, Northstar TB, ZZP Ported LIM, ZZP Stage III IC, Comp VS Cam, Comp 105 Springs, Viton Valve Seals, 42.5 Injectors, PRJ Gen II Fuel Rails and Racetronix Fuel Pump with HD Harness, TOG Headers with 3” Catted Downpipe, ZZP 3” Dual Stainless Cat-back, Dynotech Stage II Trans, 3.29 Final Drive, 2750 stall converter, GTP Engine Cradle Mounts, Front Motor Mounts Spun 90*, JMB 4” FWI, Autolite 104’s, 180* stat, GMPP Handing Kit, Moog Endlinks.

  10. #30
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeforceXtreme

    I noticed you said to raise the Min TCC Duty Cycle to 50 for the entire chart. Well being that its locking up faster wouldn't that put more wear/stress on the lockup solenoid? I was noticing granny like TCC lockups when I had the stock table running with my northstar. However I bumped the table up 3% more from stock and it most certainly helped. I am just worried about raising it up so much higher that it could cause damage to the lockup solenoid over time?
    The stock TCC duty cycle tables cause the TCC to slip. This is very hard on the TC clutch, and increases trans temps. On the V8's, I set the TCC min table to 90, never had a problem with the TCC PWM solenoid. And I set the TCC max table to 100 on all vehicles.

    Russ Kemp

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlclarkiiRegal
    This is extremely nice if you have a high stall TC, like a 3750 rpm stall which I had, otherwise if you have a stock TCC, I just recommend leaving it stock.
    That is the best and correct response.

    I've worked on a friend's Monte SS with a ZZP hardened tranny. Seems ZZP slapped in a high stall TC and did change these settings in the PCM. His tranny grenaded within a thousand miles.

    Replaced with another tranny, minor changes were made to these tables in his PCM and his car's tranny was working perfectly afterwards.
    '99 Black GTP Sedan
    3.4-2.6" PB Quick Change pulleys, Custom CAI, XP Cam, N* TB, LQ4 MAF, SLP headers, 42.5# Injectors, 180/195* thermostat.

    13.501 @ 103.392 on 91 (2.4 60-foot).
    13.82 @ 105.28 on 87 octane! (2.42 60-foot).
    263kph top end as shown on the GPS.
    All this and 39MPG to boot. What more can a man ask for?
    * Just another enthusiastic amateur tuner! *

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K
    The stock TCC duty cycle tables cause the TCC to slip. This is very hard on the TC clutch, and increases trans temps. On the V8's, I set the TCC min table to 90, never had a problem with the TCC PWM solenoid. And I set the TCC max table to 100 on all vehicles.

    Russ Kemp
    So would you still make these kind of changes with a stock TC?

  13. #33
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    Russ, thats somehting that I saw on another car... was TCC slip RPMs, and you may know the answer to this...

    Stock settings with the TC locked and cruising on a level surface at a steady speed, slip RPMs are 30-50 RPM. With this rebuilt tranny in another car, I was seeing zero, nada slippage. It just hit in at 0 as soon as the TCC locked and stayed there until it unlocked.

    I heard that some minor slippage is very desireable to better absorb torque fluctuations and reduces the possibility of TCC damage and what not, but the source was far from a tranny expert.

    Which do you feel is better and why?


    (edited for typos... what else is new... lol)
    Last edited by JerryH; 05-01-2008 at 04:15 PM.
    '99 Black GTP Sedan
    3.4-2.6" PB Quick Change pulleys, Custom CAI, XP Cam, N* TB, LQ4 MAF, SLP headers, 42.5# Injectors, 180/195* thermostat.

    13.501 @ 103.392 on 91 (2.4 60-foot).
    13.82 @ 105.28 on 87 octane! (2.42 60-foot).
    263kph top end as shown on the GPS.
    All this and 39MPG to boot. What more can a man ask for?
    * Just another enthusiastic amateur tuner! *

  14. #34
    Tuner krunchss's Avatar
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    Also interested in Russ' comment for this Jerry...Just to clarify...

    My car is an L36 with a turbo, replaced the OEM trans with a ZZP version with 2.93 gears (OEM had 3.29, went these gears in search of maximum fuel mileage) and a 3000 stall convertor. As soon as it was installed, this "Slip" problem was immediate. Cruising on the highway, driving up just the slightest grade, slip rpm would continousley vary from about 50 rpm, up to 300 before full TCC unlock. On continous gentle grades, the TCC would never unlock, but you knew there was a problem just by looking at the rpm guage in my car. Like I said, continous surging between 50 and 300 rpms I figure. This eventually generageted enough heat after continous highway driving over 1.5 days that something let go. To this day, what let go, I still have not gotten an answer. At the time of the failure, trans temp rose to ver 250F and once pulled over to the side of the highway, I had NO gears, I can't remember, but Park might not have even worked. Stuck in the middle of nowhere, ZZP shipped me another trans, put it in, exact same issue! I finally found a sweet spot for diving where trans temp could be maintained under 200 for the most part. 102 km/hr in 3rd gear. The TCC seemed to lock and act normal. So I drove it like that for another 2000 kilometers as I didn't have much choice! Then a fix came by raising up the TCC DC MIN by some amount. I have looked at the table since then, but can't remember the value that each cell was raised. All I know is that now everything works like it should, TCC stays locked in 4th and only unlocks at the setting I have set. And as Jerry stated, when my TCC is locked there is "0" slip rpm. Now, as I climb a hill, TCC slip will stay at "0" until it ALMOST until it reaches my TCC unlock value. I know when my TCC will unlock just by looking at my slip rpm now...I know as soon as my slip rpm reaches 50 rpm, THAT'S when my TCC unlocks....everytime.

    Krunch

    There is one other thing here...I DO have the "Abrupt" TCC lockup in 4th gear that feels like a whole NEW gear. Seeing how this was brought up, is this abrupt lockup bad?
    2002 Monte Carlo SS "Project Intimidator"

    [*DHP PowerTuner*] [L36] [180 TStat] [ZZP HVTB] [HV3] [Resonator & U-Bend Delete] [Carsound Hi Flow Cat] [Corsa Catback] [P&P OEM Manifolds] [Precision PT61] [ZZP Trans] [3000 Stall] [2.93 Gears] [F-Body Calipers] [Water-To-Air IC] [AFCO Ford SVT HE] [IAT Post-IC] [Bosch IC Pump] [9.5L System Fluid Capacity]

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckmann
    So would you still make these kind of changes with a stock TC?
    I'd not change this table for any reason short of a different RPM stall. The rest we can change via other tables in the tranny section.

    Dwayne, that was your car I was referring to... lol!

    As for that abruptness, if it is the same as when I was in the car, its not bad at all, but you can address that by slightly lowering values in the TCC Max tables, I believe.
    Last edited by JerryH; 05-04-2008 at 09:06 PM.
    '99 Black GTP Sedan
    3.4-2.6" PB Quick Change pulleys, Custom CAI, XP Cam, N* TB, LQ4 MAF, SLP headers, 42.5# Injectors, 180/195* thermostat.

    13.501 @ 103.392 on 91 (2.4 60-foot).
    13.82 @ 105.28 on 87 octane! (2.42 60-foot).
    263kph top end as shown on the GPS.
    All this and 39MPG to boot. What more can a man ask for?
    * Just another enthusiastic amateur tuner! *

  16. #36
    Tuner krunchss's Avatar
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    Yeah I know you were referring to my car Jerry lol. I just wanted to clarify that under some circumstances I DO in fact still see some slip. It's just a lot less, and it slips for a lot less time. As you know, my cruise control tables are still stock (for now anyway, that WILL change :P) But if I was using cruise control right now and came to a fairly steep incline, you know how long the stock tables will try and keep the TCC locked right? Well, if I am watching slip rpm under this circumstance, just before the TCC releases, I will see up to 50 rpm. It seems right at 50 rpm, my TCC releases.

    I in fact REALLY like the way my TCC locks now, it feels solid. But a little on the fence for me that it almost feels like I might be putting too much strain on the TCC, too fast...MAYBE. Just the way I perceive it, of course this is the first car I have EVER owned with ANY kind of performance trans, so I have nothing to compare too.

    In addition to my extensive engine tuning I will need to do this summer, I suspect I will likley have to make a fair number of trans changes too. I have a tranny cooler going into my car (while doing my IC setup) and I also want to get some Dexron VI back in there. I hear this helps the temps as well.

    Mild hijack Jerry, I think we talked about this and it may have been partially you idea as well...My tranny cooling setup? Not sure if I told you...In addition of relocating my battery to the trunk, as i an locating my IC reservoir where my battery was, I am relocating my windshield wash to the trunk as well....why? Cuz I needed the room for the tranny cooler...?...!...? Yup, I got a tranny cooler with fan, controlled by a thermostat in the cooler that activates around 170-180F. In addition, I am adding a fluid thermostat that diverts only 10% of the fluid through the tranny cooler UNTIL the tranny reaches 170-180F, then 90% of the tranny fluid will flow through the cooler and the fan should look after it past that point. Should be interesting...So, seeing how I have more tranny cooling, I MIGHT play a little more with the TCC and delay locking it a bit longer. Maybe this will make the "Abruptness" a little less if the TCC is locked at a higher speed. I have lots of playing to do once I see how the tranny cooler (system) handles the heat.

    Krunch
    Last edited by krunchss; 05-05-2008 at 09:40 AM.
    2002 Monte Carlo SS "Project Intimidator"

    [*DHP PowerTuner*] [L36] [180 TStat] [ZZP HVTB] [HV3] [Resonator & U-Bend Delete] [Carsound Hi Flow Cat] [Corsa Catback] [P&P OEM Manifolds] [Precision PT61] [ZZP Trans] [3000 Stall] [2.93 Gears] [F-Body Calipers] [Water-To-Air IC] [AFCO Ford SVT HE] [IAT Post-IC] [Bosch IC Pump] [9.5L System Fluid Capacity]

  17. #37
    Tuner in Training afguy0127's Avatar
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    Not to thread hijack (seems a couple of us have had to say that huh? lol), but i just recently had a trans rebuild done at a shop here locally. I had a ZZP build, with their 2500 converter, but after another build (old converter failed after a year), I have a 100-300 rpm surge once the car has warmed up. I just got my HPTuner, so I haven't had a chance to play around with these tables yet, but just reading this thread so far is helping to point me in the right direction. When I had the build done at ZZP, they put their table in my pcm, and I don't know what is different about this build, but something is off. I had zzp send me another file, so I'm going to try and flash that, and see if anything changes. I'm also feeling a very harsh unlock when slowing to a stop, so I'm hoping the file ZZP sent me will help to fix that as well. I just wanted to post and say thanks for all of the helpful information so far.

  18. #38
    Tuner krunchss's Avatar
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    For a stall higher than OEM you need to raise the values in the TCC_DC_MIN table. For my 3000 stall, every value in this table was raised by 30 points. At the time I had no access to the table and someone who I now consider to be a very good friend was responsible of getting me out of this shit storm that I found myself in, several thousand miles away from home!

    Krunch
    2002 Monte Carlo SS "Project Intimidator"

    [*DHP PowerTuner*] [L36] [180 TStat] [ZZP HVTB] [HV3] [Resonator & U-Bend Delete] [Carsound Hi Flow Cat] [Corsa Catback] [P&P OEM Manifolds] [Precision PT61] [ZZP Trans] [3000 Stall] [2.93 Gears] [F-Body Calipers] [Water-To-Air IC] [AFCO Ford SVT HE] [IAT Post-IC] [Bosch IC Pump] [9.5L System Fluid Capacity]

  19. #39
    Tuner in Training afguy0127's Avatar
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    Well I'm thinking for now I'm just going to try and disable lockup through the apply speed table, just as a work around until I actually have time to sift through this and try and fix it. I'm in a transition state (just graduated college, pulling military duty, then moving and looking for work), so I just need this thing to not surge and cause any undue wear on parts for now.

    I have tried upping the values in the min table, but no results so far. I'm thinking about trying the 90 for all values on the min table, and see if it will stay locked with that, and then backing down those values until I find something that feels more comfortable.
    2012 C63 AMG

  20. #40
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    Russ does set the min table to 90 and the max to 100 in his V8 tunes....