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Thread: 2012 Mustang M6 E85 RPM hanging, Slow decel

  1. #1
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
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    2012 Mustang M6 E85 RPM hanging, Slow decel

    2012 Mustang M6

    Parts installed:
    Ford LU47 47lbs injectors
    E85
    BBK Cat Deletes
    MBRP Race Catback

    Hello,

    I'm having the strangest problem. On 91 the car decels and slows down like any other Mustang I've tune in the past. As soon as I put this car on E85, the car's decel is poor, RPM hangs and going through parking lots the car drives itself. When doing a burnout at the dragstrip to heat the tires, when I let off it takes a solid 5-7 seconds to come back down to idle.

    I put the car on the dyno to try and fix this issue but to no avail. I barely put any parts on my own car and have this bizzare issue. I'm trying to see if I made any mistakes anywhere or if there's something I missed.

    This will be the first Mustang on E85 I've had this issue with. Could the Gen 1 stock airbox and stock intake manifold be the culprit? Most S197's I've tune so far had bolt ons and has not has this issue, even on flex fuel.

    Attached is the Tune and the Log

    shop car Robert's tune base map e85 3.hpt
    rpm hanging when switched to E85 and LU47s.hpl

    Thank You
    Last edited by Robert00MustangTurbo; 08-23-2019 at 07:31 PM.

  2. #2
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    It's not the stock airbox. The problems is your spark tables. They're pretty bad.
    As load increases, spark should decrease in order. There should not be any 38, 33, 36. It needs to be 38, 37, 36, 35, or what ever timing you go with, it needs to decrease.
    Your MBT table is far too advance at low loads. You have so much timing on MBT, that MBT timing is holding the rev out causing it RPM to hang.
    Almost the whole log, your Spark Source is in Torque Control. Your tables should follow Base and Borderline the majority of the time. You also hit pre-ignition limit during your WOT pull.

    You're leaving a lot of power on the table having Borderline and MBT set up that way. I would restart from stock. You use E85 for power. Return all your spark tables back to stock. and this is how your timing should be for OP Borderline and OP MBT
    e85.PNG

  3. #3
    what if stock whipple tables are shit for MBT?

  4. #4
    Sorry to be more specific can you describe the behavior in a bit more detail. I have a similar experience and I do think its related but need to understand how to match the behavior with the tables and understand the correlation enough to change intelligently.

  5. #5
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    The behavior as what?

    In this case, the down rev did not have any sources showing it was decelerating. Instead of decel, spark source was in torque control. MBT was in the 50's, borderline was mid 40s, but timing was in torque control holding 30*. I keep my spark decel in the low teens at the same RPM. There are more dependencies when I say this because of the different gens and how they work, but on a first gen coyote, MP 0 needs MBT to be less than borderline at low loads.. It's like the car needs more air or fuel for the timing that was commanded and it could only get to 30* and hold.

    Post a tune and log or describe it more.

  6. #6
    Sep 5b .hpt

    So basically its a gt350, installed in 2018. Beechmont Ford in Cincy jacked it up horribly. Never ran properly and it sat at the dealer waiting for an oil pan they screwed up. I took it home that fall after they had it for 3 months and was forced to fix about 7 other install mistakes then winter hit so it sat.

    Contacted a local tuner that winter and he decided he wasnt interested in fixing SD tables, and only wanted to adjust MAF for 800 bucks. We agreed to disagree.

    2019 - tired of looking at a car that wouldn't run contacted a well known tuner. 16 files later the car still ran like shit. we agreed to do a partial refund and I began making very small adjustments based on the logs and what I have been able to learn here and other places to his last calibration. I went through every table and in several cases fixed clear QC problems (axis and table data swapped, zero torque cells surrounded by high values in high load areas etc.)

    Car has never wanted to start. Never. the last thing the well known tuner told me was that the MBT Tables were hosed and it would be tricky to fix it especially remotely.

    I have been very slowly fixing the QC issues in the Whipple Cal as well as using a MAP sensor with the pro tools to adjust the SD. The MAF was tweaked first so now I am dealing with TQ and load /IPC.

    I have been able to almost completely eliminate IPC errors, except at start. Massive error at startup, there seems to be an issue with Load and Timing. if you just give it a bit of pedal and get it out of the lowest rpm / load cells it isn't an issue.

    As I have made the car run better everywhere else it started to run worse at idle, and startup. currently it does what is mentioned above, it revs up when it shouldn't, and closed loop timing control goes to ridiculous retard, -1 or -3 at times.

    I believe the issue may be in the tq table or the timing tables, but I don't want to hack at it.

  7. #7
    to be clear the QC issues were also in the base whipple cal.

  8. #8
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    Yours wouldn't be the first with issues on that kind of calibration. I can send you some adjustments for your idle. You can test it out. The last whipple strat I had, o ended up running 6 or 7 mapped points.

  9. #9
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Sorry for the Late Reply. Been busy here at the shop.

    Thatwhite5.0 was correct. My issue was in my timing tables. I put it back to stock and the vehicle drives great and feels like any other Mustang I've tuned. My issue was I was rushing on my own car and copied and pasted the timing tables from a "known good map that worked on that car" and that's when the issue started. I kick myself for doing that and take it as a lesson learned.

    As Thatwhite5.0 said on post #2, there was a lot of power left on the tables and returning it back to stock and used his recommendation as a starting point, I felt a significant improvement on the low and mid range of the powerband. When I have time, I will put the car back on my dyno and compare the two graphs from the "copy pasta" timing maps and the fixed timing maps. I will post it up as soon as it is done

  10. #10
    That's good to hear buddy!

    My problem is that the Whipple calibration I have to return to is really a mess. Its embarrassing really. one update they sent had 5-7 degree changes in effective timing, the next had temp compensations hacked up. That's when I stopped talking to them and said I'll do it myself. I went through each table and found a bunch more silly errors.

  11. #11
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    Right don't fix it if it ain't broken. Folks think they need to change everything but Ford put a lot of work into perfecting the stock tune for drivability... don't undo that.
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
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