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Thread: Audi 2.0t pulling timing

  1. #1
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    Audi 2.0t pulling timing

    I've got a '12 Audi A4 with the 2.0t engine (EA888 gen 2, CAEB) and I'm trying to learn how to tune it. Just as a little background I'm pretty experienced with tuning, but on older systems that are not nearly as complex as this!

    I started by making changes to driver-demand torque tables which seemed to have no effect. So I increased some other torque-related parameters, and now the engine is pulling timing like crazy! Even when not under much load... I could understand if it's knocking at high boost but it even happens at low throttle openings and manifold pressures.

    Now here's the thing: I did NOT change any timing-related parameters! At least not intentionally.

    "Before" and "after" tune files (the one with "2" in the name is the "before") and a short log attached. My laptop battery died so the log doesn't contain much, but it does show the problem.

    Does anyone have any insight on this?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
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    tghe very first thing i noticed is the car is not even up to operating temp. ALWAYS make sure car is at operating temp for atleast two mins before gather data and making changes based off it. or else you are running off a whole different set of tables then what you are probably making changes on. please get car at proper temp then do some more logs. ill see if i can help.

  3. #3
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    Okay, here are a couple more logs, that work well for comparison.

    The one named "2019-10-22..." is on the OE tune and you can see it's warmed up by about the 5-minute point. The one titled "A4 more power 2..." is on my bad tune. You can see it's pulling a ton of timing even at idle, so it sure doesn't look to me like a knock issue or anything. I should reiterate I did *not* change any timing settings! Only torque-related parameters (as far as I know!).
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  4. #4
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    I just had a look at your tuned file last night compared to your stock file and it seems like you just added a percent increase across the board to the torque to load map without also making the appropriate changes in the load to torque map (load axis) so the timing intervention you are seeing looks to be coming from torque monitoring, my suggestion is to only increase values in the last 4 rows of your torque to load map at a gradual percent increase because everything under 100% load is already setup for normal driving, idle and part load conditions

    P.S. don’t forget to also make the corresponding changes in your load to torque map via the load axis ��

    Hope this helps

  5. #5
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    Tyler,

    Thanks! That makes perfect sense... it does seem like some parts of the system are fighting others when it comes to increasing power. The only thing is... I can't find a load-to-torque map? I'm attaching a screeenshot of the engine-torque model-general page which is where the torque-to-load table is, but I don't see the other. I went into the navigator and searched and can't find it there either.

    Re which cells I changed, this definitely wasn't meant to be a "real" tune. It's more just exploration to see the effect of changing different things.

    Although it's not done yet, I actually made up a neat little spreadsheet last night where you put the torque increase you want vs. RPM in one set of cells, and the amount to apply the increase vs. pedal position in another set of cells, then you copy-paste a driver-demand table in from VCM editor and it automagically recomputes the whole table. You just copy-paste the result back into the editor and you're done (for that one table)!
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  6. #6
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    Update your software, use the latest beta

  7. #7
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    I am! I'm using version 4.5.877, downloaded two days ago. Maybe that parameter isn't in HP's list for my particular engine? It's the CAEB.

  8. #8
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    Could have sworn I opened YOUR file and compared and saw the table available with no alterations but maybe I am mistaken

  9. #9
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    You're not thinking of the A6 file I posted in my other thread did you? I'm a glutton for punishment so I'm trying to learn to tune both at the same time.

    In the A6 file (the A6 has the 3.0t engine), the airflow-to-torque and torque-to-airflow tables are on the same page.

  10. #10
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    No it was definitely the file in which the whole load table was changed by a % value, you sure you’re opening the beta and then opening the file and not just clicking on the file to open it?

  11. #11
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    Yep! Even when I open the file by double-clicking, it uses the beta editor. If I open it in the non-beta editor, I don't even see the torque-to-load table.

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    Damn, time to open a ticket I guess

  13. #13
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    ELaw-maps.jpg

    This is what i can see with your file open

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    Ah I figured it out... you're using advanced view! In basic view (or whatever it's called, I don't have the editor open right now), the optimum torque map isn't shown.

    Edit: I contacted HPT support and they said they're going to make the "optimum torque" map visible in basic mode as it's "vital for basic tuning".
    Last edited by ELaw; 11-01-2019 at 07:54 PM.

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    Hey can I ask another dumb question? Those torque tables that have "Engine Load (%)" on the Y axis (optimum engine torque and optimum engine torque (monitoring))... is "load %" really MAP? I can't figure out what that would be a percentage of, and on the stock tables the highest value is about 190 which seems suspiciously close to the MAP value (in kPa) I see at full throttle.

    BTW I tweaked the "optimum torque" table a bit and things seem to have improved considerably. I get the sense this engine-management system uses timing to provide fast control of torque output so the timing always seems to be varying all over the place. But now it seems to be varying more like with the OE tune and not retarding like crazy all the time.

    Edit: same question for the various "max load" tables on the airflow-general page. The units are given as percent, but I'm again left wondering "percent of what", and the numbers which top out right around 200 seem like they should be MAP values.
    Last edited by ELaw; 11-01-2019 at 07:52 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELaw View Post
    Ah I figured it out... you're using advanced view! In basic view (or whatever it's called, I don't have the editor open right now), the optimum torque map isn't shown.

    Edit: I contacted HPT support and they said they're going to make the "optimum torque" map visible in basic mode as it's "vital for basic tuning".
    Glad you got this sorted out

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELaw View Post
    Hey can I ask another dumb question? Those torque tables that have "Engine Load (%)" on the Y axis (optimum engine torque and optimum engine torque (monitoring))... is "load %" really MAP? I can't figure out what that would be a percentage of, and on the stock tables the highest value is about 190 which seems suspiciously close to the MAP value (in kPa) I see at full throttle.

    BTW I tweaked the "optimum torque" table a bit and things seem to have improved considerably. I get the sense this engine-management system uses timing to provide fast control of torque output so the timing always seems to be varying all over the place. But now it seems to be varying more like with the OE tune and not retarding like crazy all the time.

    Edit: same question for the various "max load" tables on the airflow-general page. The units are given as percent, but I'm again left wondering "percent of what", and the numbers which top out right around 200 seem like they should be MAP values.
    Load is directly based off of airflow(MAF) or the calculated Airflow model (Alpha-N(with map taken into account)) in the event of a maf failure.

    This number is what the ecu uses to dictate Fuelling, Timing, VCT, EGT calc, and a bunch of other factors. the main conversion rate can be found under the 'Airflow", "General" "Aircharge Conversion" Get used to this variable if you plan on tuning any Bosch Motronic system

    Here you can see the relationship between the torque and airflow maps as they share an axis, the maximum load map is the main limiting map for your requested load, see also the turbocharger section for PR Limit map (ECM 14803) if you are not reaching the requested load level you request in Maximum Load (ECM 34903)

    MED17-Airflow-Maps.jpg

    post your latest file and some logs and ill be happy to give you any pointers i can

  18. #18
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    Yeah I found the PR limit map and increased it... I'll have to check and see if it needs further work.

    I'll actually give you two logs... one in normal mode, the other in sport. I've been logging transmission parameters in an effort to figure out which maps it uses when...
    Attached Files Attached Files

  19. #19
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    I was thinking about all this last night, and I'm still having trouble getting my head around why there are so many different tables that seem to specify torque.

    Am I on the right track in thinking that the tables under "driver demand" tell the system how much torque is desired vs. throttle and RPM, and the tables in other areas (like "torque model") tell the system *how* to produce a given amount of torque?

  20. #20
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    first off you can basically disregard any of the torque tables in the driver demand that are in Nm, until you go over the max allowable torque in Nm you dont have to worry about this, drivers requested relative torque (optimum engine torque ECM 32900) is the only one you have to worry about for it's relationship with load request.

    I had a look at your tuned file and your log, it all looks good but you might want to log knock retard and also look at enriching the mixture via PE (ECM 14974) at peak boost/load then adding timing until you see retard of 1-3* across all cylinders

    also i know its hard but try to get a full pedal max 3rd gear pull for logging it will give you the best data for tuning

    what are you trying to accomplish with this tune? what fuel are you running?

    Thanks, good work so far!