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Thread: is it really knock ??? spanish oak

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    is it really knock ??? spanish oak

    Hey,

    I got a little spark retard, but Im mot sure if its really knock or the knock sensor is too sensitive for superchargerging.

    do anyone have expirience ?

    pull2.hpl


    maybe its the fuel pump with a lean condition at high rpm...working on it.
    Last edited by f.creek-ranch; 10-25-2019 at 07:04 AM.

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    if you suspect its lean you need to verify fueling first

    without any specs on the vehicle no one can say what timing is typical

    if its a stock 3v with say 10lbs on it the knock sensors would typically allow 22 degrees on good fuel. If the knock sensors are yanking timing down below below 16-17 then probably false knock unless its got other issues. As you stated though if you fuel problems you need to get those resolved first.
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    sorry for that...
    edelbrock 1580 with 3.50 pulley and stock pump.
    just log new with higher voltage and psi on pump.

    knock is even at 1000-3000 rpm max 1* Retard, so I lower the MBT

    ....at high load max 17-21 degrees are max ....

    I saw 30* on SC Mustangs....

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    you dont lower mbt you lower borderline

    that fine sounds like the knock sensor is fine

    anyone that shoots 30 degrees to a supercharged 3v is an idiot and shouldn't be tuning.
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  5. #5
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decipha View Post

    anyone that shoots 30 degrees to a supercharged 3v is an idiot and shouldn't be tuning.
    And you just keep going...

    An attitude like that won't bring you many customers.

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    From the log you posted, you are not getting knock retard. You are getting knock advance, as borderline drops below MBT, the ECU is not detecting knock, so it advances spark to keep it on MBT. Spark will follow the lower of the values, advancing from borderline trying to reach MBT if it doesnt sense detonation.
    Looking at your WB, you are actually really rich, compared to what you are commanding. Getting your fueling in open loop correct is very important. Your calculated MAP is clearly being limited at 15.66 PSI, so I would suggest looking over your SD, this can limit your fuel rail pressure as it tries to maintain a pressure differential and minimal flow rate change from the injectors. I would change the 2.75 lb/min in the desired fuel rail pressure high load axis to 1, and the 2.8 to a 1.05. You can also increase your fuel pump desired voltage tables values and axis values, so the pump can actually achieve high enough flow for higher pressures when needed, if you haven't already. You probably will need to increase the flow max as well.

    Knock advance.PNG

    As far as what to target for spark, here is the MBT table with all the corrections for IMRC and target lambda applied. for the stock NA it targets ~28*. Extend that out in excel using a trend line as the load goes up. You can see it will want to be somewhere between 22-26* depending on how high you are running the boost. If you only added the IMRC correction, it would look like it leveled off at 31*.

    This is assuming your fuel doesn't detonate long before this spark advance. IATs/ ECTs/ and many other things can effect that.

    4.6 MBT.PNG

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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    And you just keep going...

    An attitude like that won't bring you many customers.
    Evidently you aren't aware of how much Decipha has given to the automotive community, without expecting ANY return on it.

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B E N View Post
    Evidently you aren't aware of how much Decipha has given to the automotive community, without expecting ANY return on it.
    Nope, never heard of him. I'm from different continent. Not used to call anyone an idiot...and he's just keep rolling..

    I have nothing against him, he just throws some random "jerk like jabs". I'm not the "classiest" person here but I can't stand his attitude.
    Last edited by veeefour; 10-27-2019 at 03:00 PM.

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    You have to excuse the internet its difficult to portray my character through text. I'm one of nicest people you'll ever hope to meet. Im the guy that pulls over to the side of the road to help out when I see someone having car trouble. Im the guy that pays for the groceries for the person in front of me at the check out when their card is declined. I treat the homeless to a hot mean and am quick to give the shirt of the back to someone in need. BUT, I'm from New Orleans, LA and as such am a product of my environment. I only have two known allergies; I'm allergic to ignorance and bullshit. I call things how I see it and I dont waste time worrying about whats politically correct or stop to consider someones feelings. I'm honest to a fault. My wife knows if she asks how she looks shes getting the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    With that said Im not here for customers contrary to that the only reason why im here is cuz i was specifically asked to in order to help spread knowledge.

    I have nothing against anyone either.

    And note i did not call the OP or anyone specifically an idiot. I simply stated anyone that shoots 30 degrees to a supercharged 3v is an idiot and shouldn't be tuning. The only person that should offend is the idiot shooting 30 deg to a supercharged 3v.
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    Im impressed, Murfie......

    read this for two hours to understand all of it.

    thanks a lot.

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    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decipha View Post
    I only have two known allergies; I'm allergic to ignorance and bullshit.


    That is going to rub veeefour the wrong way.

    He obviously has some good knowledge, but lacks awareness of where that knowledge gets fuzzy or ends. He makes bold claims, then refuses to provide a solid explanation, or any data to back them up.

    This thread is a great example: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-BAP-and-DW400

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    That is going to rub veeefour the wrong way.

    He obviously has some good knowledge, but lacks awareness of where that knowledge gets fuzzy or ends. He makes bold claims, then refuses to provide a solid explanation, or any data to back them up.

    This thread is a great example: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-BAP-and-DW400
    You again...oh no.

    You will get a solid answer but you need ask politely first - not the other way around. My awareness is there don't you worry.

    P.S. About that thread. Your SD model is wrong - that never changed.

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    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Feel free to back up your claims that my SD model and my fueling are "wrong".

    Until then, people will see your claims for what they are: baseless.

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    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    innocent ......

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    Did you get your problem solved f.creek?

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    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
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    Not yet, waiting for a new Walbro 255 Fuel pump.

    but ive figured out, that the fuel pressure gets better by rising fuel flow max and high Limit multiplicator.

    the knock can be a Problem from fuel pressure, got max 1* Retard and some advance.

    meanwhile I do some fun logging and try some maths in scanner for cold idle and other.

    thanks for asking...

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    if your still using the stock returnless fuel system you have to get a pump specific for its use

    boosted 3v's don't need a whole lot of timing. Usually there isn't much to gain above about 16 degrees or so up top in boost.
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  18. #18
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decipha View Post
    if your still using the stock returnless fuel system you have to get a pump specific for its use

    boosted 3v's don't need a whole lot of timing. Usually there isn't much to gain above about 16 degrees or so up top in boost.


    Decipha, where have you seen spark gains level off with boosted Coyotes?

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    they don't on a coyote you will usually hit knock before mbt on pump gas
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  20. #20
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Cool, thanks.