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Thread: Cam timing

  1. #1
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    Cam timing

    Any suggestions for cam timing for top end power of NA set up

  2. #2
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    Should I add intake opening sooner or exhaust ? Or both

  3. #3
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    What is the NA setup?

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    N/A 2019 e85 and k/n drop in and my tuning shifting at 7800 rpm with sport shift auto up shifts
    stock power dies off 7500 and now that I adjusted cam timing my Maf has increased from 50 lbs
    to 55 lbs of air on the top end
    Last edited by paulsmithsr; 12-28-2019 at 12:07 PM.

  5. #5
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    For NA: It really depends on your mods. When I was NA on my 14 Coyote, I had a 2018 Ported Intake. I did some testing with various VCT settings and found with fair certainty that for my setup, advancing IVO higher than stock settings gave me good results from 2000-6000 rpms. After 6k stock seemed to work well. On NA I don't think you're going to squeeze more than 5 to 10HP out (still worth tuning though!) but for Forced Induction I'm sure there are better gains to be had!

    Everyone on this forum should start a thread with all of the relevant data about the car: Year/Model/Mods and if applicable datalogs/tune attached.... We need to reduce the clutter big time.
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
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    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsmithsr View Post
    N/A e85 and k/n drop in and my tuning shifting at 7800 rpm with sport shift auto up shifts
    stock power dies off 7500 and now that I adjusted cam timing my Maf has increased from 50 lbs
    to 55 lbs of air on the top end
    55 lbs of air would indicate around 50hp gain. I find that hard to believe especially at over 7k on a stock manifold? What year is your car / manifold?
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  7. #7
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    2019 auto 10 speed yes that's with a lot of tuning -- maf and e85 added and couple hard limits I have ran into aka fuel insuffenat and no going into Pe all the time and torgue management setting ,trans tuning ----bone stock at 7500 car pulled 48 lbs of air now at 7800 it 55 lbs going to raise to 8ooo as see if higher
    would add pic but wont let me
    Last edited by paulsmithsr; 12-28-2019 at 12:05 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsmithsr View Post
    2019 auto 10 speed yes that's with a lot of tuning -- maf and e85 added and couple hard limits I have ran into aka fuel insuffenat and no going into Pe all the time and torgue management setting ,trans tuning ----bone stock at 7500 car pulled 48 lbs of air now at 7800 it 55 lbs going to raise to 8ooo as see if higher
    would add pic but wont let me
    To make an apples to apples comparison you would need to have your MAF dialed in before and after mods/changes near perfect since MAF flow is your gauge. Just a drop in high flow filter can definitely skew your readings... which in my case actually made fuel trims add fuel but uncorrected MAF flow look like I lost power. However when I corrected it actual gains were around 3% more MAF flow

    If you were only pulling 2 more lbs of air with E85 and additional timing i'd think maybe the stock VCT settings were holding you back at that point (up top). I never revved my Gen1 that high.. Had it shifting at 7200 or 7400 so my stock settings worked fine up top. One thing sure is that ported 2018 intake really never fell off in air flow like my stock 2014 intake after 7k so I had more potential if I wanted to go max effort NA but ended up going FI
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  9. #9
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    No info ?

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    I know this is old but generally the higher the RPM the LATER you want to close the intake valve. This Ford software is backwards in the way it times cams. INV opening is an important value, but not as important as INV close.

    So advancing the Intake came closes it sooner. Think in terms of after bottom dead center. If you advance the cam, open sooner, say 20 degrees before top dead center, you close the valve sooner in relation to the piston moving up in the cylinder.

    Arbratary numbers coming since I cannot find any solid cam timing specs on the coyote

    At low RPM you want to close the valve eariler, say 29 degrees after BDC this makes a dynamic compression ratio of 8 to 1 at 3000 RPM

    If you closed the valve at the same point at 6000 RPM the dynamic compression would be 14 to 1. Again I'm only stating trends the actual numbers will be different. This would cause detonation.

    So at 6000 RPM we would want to close the valve at 40 degrees after bottom dead center, this keeps our 8 to 1 dynamic compression ratio

    A basic primer on how to time the intake cam

    If someone can give me the installed position of the 2 gen coyote it would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by K44; 09-04-2020 at 11:26 PM.

  11. #11
    paul you ever find angles that picked up any flow?

    ive tried 4-5 versions and then simply minor tweaks from stock cams with the my18 manifold. besides the sub 3500rpm area, ive not found anything worth running/changing. im shifting at 75-7600 max. i was of the mindset that if your going to use the airflow to try and see gains, the maf calibration needed to be left alone between cam changes regardless of fuel trims. the measuring stick needs to be a constant (or as close as possible).

    k44 terry shared this cam spec card few years back when comp cams first started dropping their gen2 stuff.

    detailed thread of higgs/kriss/murfie walking through the cam settings and being based on .006 not normal .050 etc..

    Comp 15 cams.jpg

    cam timing/overlap worksheet from kriss and thread https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...Overlap-Tuning
    IVO EVC.xlsx

  12. #12
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    That was an interesting thread, too bad they stopped updating it.

    Thanks for the link

  13. #13
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    Not sure I want to bump that thread, although it does have a ton of good information.

    Has anyone figured out the real installed position at mid lock?

    With the way the cams get moved around that 340 could be anything.

    I also find it amusing on the 18 + cars the exhaust timing is based on 720 degrees.