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Thread: Help with turbo Coyote

  1. #1
    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Help with turbo Coyote

    Hello and thank you in advance for reading this post.

    I was tuning an automatic turbo 2011 mustang and the torque drops when the revs pass ~6600rpm, I'm able to rev cleanly to whatever I put the limiter and I see no torque limiters in the logs, the spark is where it is supposed to be and the throttle angle still holds steady. I see it try to go a bit lean however the fuel pressure holds steady an the boost is steady at around 14psi. The car has a return style fuel system with blow-thru maf on the charge pipe, 95lb dw injectors and e85 on stock heads with the boss 302 intake.

    Starting, cruising and wot are very smooth and idle is great. I have a couple of questions for this tune:

    - I updated the torque tables axis but my torque inverse axis is still only to oem range, do I have to update these as well?

    - I have not touched the speed density coefficients yet as this is a stock engine and figured it should get me pretty close, do I have to update these?

    - The o2 sensors are placed before the turbo, and there is about a 1 point reading discrepancy between the sensor in the downpipe, it this caused due to blowthrough or is it normal to read like this?

    - I noticed my desired load does not match my actual load, I have searched everywhere but don't know how to make it match. Can someone point me in the right direction?

    I have attached one of the logs in third gear, however I did try 3rd, 4th, and it does limit torque in all gears. Also attached is the the dyno graph.

    Thanks in advance
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Last edited by kareltuning; 12-29-2019 at 09:49 PM.

  2. #2
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    I think .74 commanded lambda is too rich, IMO. You need to adjust fuel trims as well. You were as rich as .67 while commanding .74

    Yes, you need to rescale and recalculate the inverse axis. You could get away with rescale the bottom two rows, the highest loads on inverse, then recalculate the cells.
    This will help with Desired Load as well.

    Would be able to tell you more with a .hpt file.

  3. #3
    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    I think .74 commanded lambda is too rich, IMO. You need to adjust fuel trims as well. You were as rich as .67 while commanding .74

    Yes, you need to rescale and recalculate the inverse axis. You could get away with rescale the bottom two rows, the highest loads on inverse, then recalculate the cells.
    This will help with Desired Load as well.

    Would be able to tell you more with a .hpt file.
    Thank you. My target lambda is that because as I quoted in the post, the downpipe wideband reads leaner than the stock pre-turbo sensors so I'm going by the downpipe given that there are zero misfires. See the dyno sheet with afr attached. I'm mostly worried about the reduction in torque after 6700rpms.

    Here is the file from that pass. I have done many revisions so don't want to clutter the post with all of these. Again thank you in advance for your time.
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    I see, I looked at the drop in power, unrelated to your question.

    The torque inverse tables work together to calculate many different PIDs. There's a lot of calculating needed to be done for each inverse table or you can use the inverse calculator in Beta if you have it. I'm not 100% how that calculator works, I calculate myself.
    Torque table has Air Load on the axis and Torque in the cells, the inverse is inverse or opposite with Torque on the axis and Air Load in the cells.

    boostedOPtqinv.PNG

    You set air load and torque. The inverse axis begins with 0 ft lbs. We can't multiply by zero so I'd leave that whole row stock if idle is good. If idle is bad you could change the 0 to an 8 or another single digit number to calculate with. Supercharged vehicle might need a higher torque value.

    Like you said you changed Torque but didn't mess with the Inverse Table. You added 1.2, 1.5 and 1.8 load and in the 1.8 load row, your cells range from 750 to 834 ft lbs. That's like doing half of the formula because the inverse table axis is only scaled to 516ft lbs which is only up to 1.2 load axis on indicated torque.
    So if the axis represent the opposing axis, 1.2 load would = 516 ft lbs. and the calculation isn't completing above that.
    Checking if your calculation is correct is as simple as finding 1.2 load or 516ft lbs in one of the cells. In the Inverse 1.2 load, 516ft lbs would be interpolating between 2000 and 2500 RPM. Look a your inverse table between 2000 and 2500 RPM for 1.2 load. It's one cell off, located between 1500 an 2000, which isn't a major issue but the calcuatlion is wrong.
    Rescale your inverse table to help calculate the torque PIDs and air load more precise. Also, at part throttle to half throttle, say you're on the highway and want to pick up speed. Those loads are very sensitive .5 to .8 load on a boosted car. Having your axis spread out too far could cause jerkiness or throttle oscillation. You don't NEED to change yours, yours could run perfectly fine. I changed your torque axis from ".6, .9, 1.2" to ".6, .8, 1.2"

    After rescaling inverse and calculating the cells, your table looks like.

    newboostop.PNG

    You could look over the axis, 825ft lbs is 1.8 load, find one of those values in the tables and look at the same cell location in the other table.

  5. #5
    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Thank you, yes I used the calculator but I guess since the axis on the inverse were capped it only filled it to whatever max it had on the axis. I will rescale and give it a try with the calculator and then double check using the inverse method you described.

    Thank you again for your time. Do you think the torque reduction is related to this? I don't see why it would but it's a step I havent done so I will try it and update.

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    It could help out. Another thing is your driver demand, multiply the last two cells on the bottom row, right side by 1.05. Add Engine Brake Torque and IPC Whee Torque Error to your channel list.
    Adjusting the torque/inverse changes a lot of torque control, can change MAF lbs.

    In Torque Model > Monitoring. increase Max Torque from 369 to 750 or multiply by two. You can keep CLIP/ADD on Adaptive or set it to Off.

    In Torque Management, set the Torque Limit Timer to 1000 s.

    In Airflow > General, set Cylair WOT Multiplier to 1.99 and Cylair Max Multiplier to 1.91.


    You can see the power loss on your datalog. The dyno shows a big decrease, your MAF lbs flatlines and decreases.

    Your MAF Period is scaled kindof odd, its too low. You have 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. On this log you were as low as 82, 83. If power keeps increasing after the issues is resolved, it might see 80. You could rescale a few of the axis and adjust fuel to use some of the cells that are not being used..
    fuel.PNG

    Spark Torque Ratio and Spark Only Torque Ratio, set Driver Demand to 1.0 in both.
    Last edited by Thatwhite5.0; 12-30-2019 at 03:47 PM.

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    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwhite5.0 View Post
    It could help out. Another thing is your driver demand, multiply the last two cells on the bottom row, right side by 1.05. Add Engine Brake Torque and IPC Whee Torque Error to your channel list.
    Adjusting the torque/inverse changes a lot of torque control, can change MAF lbs.

    In Torque Model > Monitoring. increase Max Torque from 369 to 750 or multiply by two. You can keep CLIP/ADD on Adaptive or set it to Off.

    In Torque Management, set the Torque Limit Timer to 1000 s.

    In Airflow > General, set Cylair WOT Multiplier to 1.99 and Cylair Max Multiplier to 1.91.


    You can see the power loss on your datalog. The dyno shows a big decrease, your MAF lbs flatlines and decreases.

    Your MAF Period is scaled kindof odd, its too low. You have 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. On this log you were as low as 82, 83. If power keeps increasing after the issues is resolved, it might see 80. You could rescale a few of the axis and adjust fuel to use some of the cells that are not being used..
    fuel.PNG

    Spark Torque Ratio and Spark Only Torque Ratio, set Driver Demand to 1.0 in both.
    Thank you will try all that and update as soon as I have the car again in the shop.

    I have already scaled the maf back to a max of 70us. At that time I didn't know what the max airflow was going to be and didn't want to run out of axis in case of an overboosting problem. Extremely grateful for your advice. As soon as I get this resolved I will update the post with the actual resolution so it could help others. I did not spend much time getting the fuel dialed in since I was struggling with the loss in power and wanted to get that cleared first.

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    If you have stock heads with stock valves springs then what you are seeing is exhaust valve float, and nothing to do with the tune. My car is also a turbo and it had a big dip in power like yours with nothing showing up in the logs. Exhaust back pressure is pushing the exhaust valve open and causing power to drop. It’s a pretty common problem for turbo coyotes

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    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plimmer View Post
    If you have stock heads with stock valves springs then what you are seeing is exhaust valve float, and nothing to do with the tune. My car is also a turbo and it had a big dip in power like yours with nothing showing up in the logs. Exhaust back pressure is pushing the exhaust valve open and causing power to drop. It?s a pretty common problem for turbo coyotes
    Thank you for your reply. I gave that a thought at first but usually when its valve float, the power drops more as the rpms increase since the floating gets worse. In this case the power keeps rising which is very strange. I will try it at less boost and if it is valve float it should do it at a higher rpm, I'll update as soon as I try it.

  10. #10
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    YOU SAID THE THROTTLE IS STAYING OPEN, BUT I CLEARLY SEE IT SHUT IN YOU LOG, IT CLOSES TO 35%, THEN YOU SEE THE CONVERTER "CATCH UP." i ALSO SEE A HUGE FUEL CUT UP TOP AS WELL, WHICH IS VERY EVIDENT IN YOUR DYNO GRAPH. YOUR TORQUE SOURCE SAYS ENGINE SPEED LIMIT AT THAT TIME, BUT YOUR DYNO GRAPH SHOWS HIGHER RPM. a LOG WHILE ON THE DYNO WOULD BE MOST BENEFICIAL. GOING ALONG WITH WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING, YOUR COMMANDED AND ACTUAL TORQUE NEED TO BE CLOSE, I USUALLY TRY TO COMMAND ABOUT 5% MORE TORQUE THAN ACTUAL(THIS BECOMES REAL IMPORTANT WITH LATER CARS). DRIVER DEMAND, AND TORQUE/INVERSE HAVE TO BE PRETTY DAMN CLOSE
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    you can give this a try as test...tune 37 op change test.hpt
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    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbray01 View Post
    YOU SAID THE THROTTLE IS STAYING OPEN, BUT I CLEARLY SEE IT SHUT IN YOU LOG, IT CLOSES TO 35%, THEN YOU SEE THE CONVERTER "CATCH UP." i ALSO SEE A HUGE FUEL CUT UP TOP AS WELL, WHICH IS VERY EVIDENT IN YOUR DYNO GRAPH. YOUR TORQUE SOURCE SAYS ENGINE SPEED LIMIT AT THAT TIME, BUT YOUR DYNO GRAPH SHOWS HIGHER RPM. a LOG WHILE ON THE DYNO WOULD BE MOST BENEFICIAL. GOING ALONG WITH WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING, YOUR COMMANDED AND ACTUAL TORQUE NEED TO BE CLOSE, I USUALLY TRY TO COMMAND ABOUT 5% MORE TORQUE THAN ACTUAL(THIS BECOMES REAL IMPORTANT WITH LATER CARS). DRIVER DEMAND, AND TORQUE/INVERSE HAVE TO BE PRETTY DAMN CLOSE
    That is the log from the dyno. The throttle closes at 7200rpm because that's where the rpm and torque limit is at. The dip in power is at 6700, much earlier than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning View Post
    you can give this a try as test...tune 37 op change test.hpt
    Thank you sir. Your map has the MAF period capped at 90us and my airflow is reading lower than that and it will read even lower if I go higher rpm+boost. Also your wot lambda is what I started with and it reads .9's in the downpipe.

    I don't want to just throw a map at it and hope for the best as this could go south really quick. If you see anything wrong and can point me in the right direction I will appreciate it. I have studied other points in your maps and will also give those individually a try. Thank you again

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    Tuner in Training kareltuning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plimmer View Post
    If you have stock heads with stock valves springs then what you are seeing is exhaust valve float, and nothing to do with the tune. My car is also a turbo and it had a big dip in power like yours with nothing showing up in the logs. Exhaust back pressure is pushing the exhaust valve open and causing power to drop. It’s a pretty common problem for turbo coyotes
    I have tried everything and this is definitely exhaust valve float. When I lower the boost to 5psi it revs cleanly and it gets worse as the boost goes up. Thank you sir!

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    It's not a valve float, it's your tune.

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kareltuning View Post
    I have tried everything and this is definitely exhaust valve float. When I lower the boost to 5psi it revs cleanly and it gets worse as the boost goes up. Thank you sir!
    Correct and not correct at the same time, your tune is not ready for anything above load 1.8. YourMAF transfer is bad has holes between points - ECU enters that gap and you think you have valve float while you do not.
    Last edited by veeefour; 01-26-2020 at 02:51 PM.

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    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    You still have some limiters in your tune - that's why it's closing the throttle. This will not fix the power dip tho - you need to rework your MAF transfer for that.

    Clipboard01.jpg

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    Maxing out the injectors for the pressure you have them at.

    9.7 stoich

    .75 WOt lambda

    that is a 7.275 target wot ratio.

    (from your HPT file)1.44 lb/min * 8 injectors= 11.52 lb/min max.

    11.52* 7.275 ratio= 83.8 lb/min air flow max. The same flow right when you are at ~6700RPM.


    Use the 55psi injector values from DW, set your base rail pressure to 55psi instead of 45psi, if your pump/s can maintain the flow needed for that higher pressure this should help your injectors out a lot. It would move the limit up to 98.9lb/min. commanding a leaner WOT lambda would help some too. You are getting in the COT territory.

    At the least, when you do figure out whats restricting the airflow, be it throttle closing or "valve float', You won't max the injectors out completely. They work best when kept around 80% or less.
    Last edited by murfie; 01-26-2020 at 03:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Maxing out the injectors for the pressure you have them at.

    9.7 stoich

    .75 WOt lambda

    that is a 7.275 target wot ratio.

    (from your HPT file)1.44 lb/min * 8 injectors= 11.52 lb/min max.

    11.52* 7.275 ratio= 83.8 lb/min air flow max. The same flow right when you are at ~6700RPM.


    Use the 55psi injector values from DW, set your base rail pressure to 55psi instead of 45psi, if your pump/s can maintain the flow needed for that higher pressure this should help your injectors out a lot. It would move the limit up to 98.9lb/min. commanding a leaner WOT lambda would help some too. You are getting in the COT territory.

    At the least, when you do figure out whats restricting the airflow, be it throttle closing or "valve float', You won't max the injectors out completely. They work best when kept around 80% or less.
    Kind of off question Murf: His injector offset mult. vs pressure shows that 1.44lb/min to be at 65psi. If he was at 45psi wouldn't it be a lot lower - say 1.25lb/min? That would only be 72.81 lb/min of air flow though (assuming 9.765 stoich and .744 lambda) and we know he can go higher so what's the real data?
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    offset mult. vs pressure multiplier only multiplies the offset. Offset is determined from the system voltage.
    Each flow rate, offset, and breakpoint have their own respective multiplier table.
    In a referenced/ return style system, all these pressure/multiplier tables become one's as it makes the flow rate constant by maintaining rail pressure a relative value above manifold pressure. High pressure flows to low pressure, flow remains the same if pressure difference remains the same.

    Why I say he is at 45 psi, and he needs to increase this, is because thats what he has in the inferred rail pressure tables, and it lines up with what is in DW's datasheet for what 95lb/hr injectors for a 45psi relative value being maintained by 1:1 reference.
    A higher reference value, will mean high flow values, meaning higher air flow supported. It is all scaled together. You could just scale the maf and injector flow rates up together, but then you would actually max the injectors and go lean without the ECU knowing it should close the throttle.

    I recommend 55psi as DW populated that value already. You could go up to the 67psi flow rates. These higher pressures mean you need more flow from the pump/s to maintain them. The fuel pump is maintaining the actual rail pressure, so 67+14 PSI= 81psi peak at max fuel flow, that is a lot to ask from some smaller pumps. Their flow really start to fall off in the higher pressures. There comes a point where its easier to just get bigger injectors than to try over pressurizing small ones.