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Thread: cam valve tiiming

  1. #1
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    cam valve tiiming

    SO im still very confused on this cam timing section of my tune, I installed the demon plus cam and just trying to finalized the tune with updated corresponding changes. Question is WHERE do I get my numbers for the new camshaft, ive got the tuning books from the tuning school along with the spreadsheet for excel, But...? the book only tells me to input my stock number for intake and exhaust into the excel spreadsheet and it shoots out the new numbers to change them to BUT..... this doesn't make any sense because then no matter what cam you install the numbers would all be the same. WHAT THE HELL AM I MISSING.. Also the books tell me that when you add the intake and exhaust angles together I should get 228.5* but mine come out to 241*?????6.4 scat pack

    ????????I'm guessing that even tho the numbers would be the same the cam may be in a different spot based on how the cam was ground??????Does this sound right???

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    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    2018 Trackhawk PCM/TCM tune by Dusterhoff.
    Flex Fuel, MMX faux 95mm TB, GripTec 2.85, 10% ATI lower, FIC1200, ARH 1 7/8 w/cats, 180 T-stat

    13 Chrysler 300S, RAM BGE 412 stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4, ATI 18% OD pulley
    Whipple Gen5 3.0, 2.50 upper pulley, Smooth Boost controller, FIC 1200 inj. Nick W 108mm TB, FORE dual return fuel system, E85, FTI 2800 stall(SRT83380), SHR WAR Viking trans and valve body, Getrag 3.73, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back 943rwhp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FstdodgeKY View Post
    SO im still very confused on this cam timing section of my tune, I installed the demon plus cam and just trying to finalized the tune with updated corresponding changes. Question is WHERE do I get my numbers for the new camshaft, ive got the tuning books from the tuning school along with the spreadsheet for excel, But...? the book only tells me to input my stock number for intake and exhaust into the excel spreadsheet and it shoots out the new numbers to change them to BUT..... this doesn't make any sense because then no matter what cam you install the numbers would all be the same. WHAT THE HELL AM I MISSING.. Also the books tell me that when you add the intake and exhaust angles together I should get 228.5* but mine come out to 241*?????6.4 scat pack

    ????????I'm guessing that even tho the numbers would be the same the cam may be in a different spot based on how the cam was ground??????Does this sound right???
    How does it sound?
    2018 Trackhawk PCM/TCM tune by Dusterhoff.
    Flex Fuel, MMX faux 95mm TB, GripTec 2.85, 10% ATI lower, FIC1200, ARH 1 7/8 w/cats, 180 T-stat

    13 Chrysler 300S, RAM BGE 412 stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4, ATI 18% OD pulley
    Whipple Gen5 3.0, 2.50 upper pulley, Smooth Boost controller, FIC 1200 inj. Nick W 108mm TB, FORE dual return fuel system, E85, FTI 2800 stall(SRT83380), SHR WAR Viking trans and valve body, Getrag 3.73, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back 943rwhp

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    Haven't got motor back. Just working on a start up tune. I have a demon tune but there numbers dont match. I'm sure I'm making this harder than it is

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FstdodgeKY View Post
    Haven't got motor back. Just working on a start up tune. I have a demon tune but there numbers dont match. I'm sure I'm making this harder than it is
    I'm not sure. I've been screwing with my cam settings also, 5.7 computer, 6.4 eng and cam. Working on a pretune for my TSP cam install now. Always wondered if programing my vin into a 6.4 300 SRT ECU would make a difference.
    2018 Trackhawk PCM/TCM tune by Dusterhoff.
    Flex Fuel, MMX faux 95mm TB, GripTec 2.85, 10% ATI lower, FIC1200, ARH 1 7/8 w/cats, 180 T-stat

    13 Chrysler 300S, RAM BGE 412 stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4, ATI 18% OD pulley
    Whipple Gen5 3.0, 2.50 upper pulley, Smooth Boost controller, FIC 1200 inj. Nick W 108mm TB, FORE dual return fuel system, E85, FTI 2800 stall(SRT83380), SHR WAR Viking trans and valve body, Getrag 3.73, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back 943rwhp

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    Quote Originally Posted by coanan View Post
    I'm not sure. I've been screwing with my cam settings also, 5.7 computer, 6.4 eng and cam. Working on a pretune for my TSP cam install now. Always wondered if programing my vin into a 6.4 300 SRT ECU would make a difference.
    If it is the TSP cam in your sig then LSA is 117 with 4 degs max advance ground in and I'm guessing also uses a retard limiter (prob 10degs total).
    So straight up is 117/117 and at full advance (+4) will be 113/121...used with limiter fitted, max mechanical retard will be 123/111.
    As the lobes are bigger it will like more advance than the 6.4 cam so will probably like 114ish intake & 120ish exhaust low down and maybe 117/118ish intake & 117/116ish exhaust up top.
    So that is 1 deg retarded from full adv (113+1 = 114int & 121-1 = 120exh) to 4/5 degs retarded (113+5 =118int & 121-5 = 116) at high rpm. These are the ACTUAL (real) cam numbers.
    As usual the PCM has no idea you have changed the cam....so you will need to use numbers that are derived from the fully advanced numbers the PCM uses.
    Log the stock at idle cam numbers. On 6.4 & 6.2 Hellcat/TH they will be about 106.5 intake and 134 exhaust (+14 adv from 120.5 LSA )
    I cant recall what numbers 5.7 idles at with its 114.5 LSA cam but same rules apply.
    So using 6.4/6.2 as example with your new TSP cam you just need to concentrate on how much retard you are telling it to use.
    We decided above that we wanted 1deg at low rpm and 4/5 at high rpm.
    These engines use the exhaust table to move the cam so we will make the changes there.
    134 is full advance so 1 deg retard is 133 exh.....4 degs retard is 130 exhaust.....5 degs retard is 129 exhaust and so on till you hit the 10deg retard limiter at 124degs
    (You can command more but there is no point as it will be mechanically limited and can sometimes also pull up a CEL)
    Hope that all makes sense LOL.
    Last edited by Hemituna; 01-26-2020 at 05:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner coanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    If it is the TSP cam in your sig then LSA is 117 with 4 degs max advance ground in and I'm guessing also uses a retard limiter (prob 10degs total).
    So straight up is 117/117 and at full advance (+4) will be 113/121...used with limiter fitted, max mechanical retard will be 123/111.
    As the lobes are bigger it will like more advance than the 6.4 cam so will probably like 114ish intake & 120ish exhaust low down and maybe 117/118ish intake & 117/116ish exhaust up top.
    So that is 1 deg retarded from full adv (113+1 = 114int & 121-1 = 120exh) to 4/5 degs retarded (113+5 =118int & 121-5 = 116) at high rpm. These are the ACTUAL (real) cam numbers.
    As usual the PCM has no idea you have changed the cam....so you will need to use numbers that are derived from the fully advanced numbers the PCM uses.
    Log the stock at idle cam numbers. On 6.4 & 6.2 Hellcat/TH they will be about 106.5 intake and 134 exhaust (+14 adv from 120.5 LSA )
    I cant recall what numbers 5.7 idles at with its 114.5 LSA cam but same rules apply.
    So using 6.4/6.2 as example with your new TSP cam you just need to concentrate on how much retard you are telling it to use.
    We decided above that we wanted 1deg at low rpm and 4/5 at high rpm.
    These engines use the exhaust table to move the cam so we will make the changes there.
    134 is full advance so 1 deg retard is 133 exh.....4 degs retard is 130 exhaust.....5 degs retard is 129 exhaust and so on till you hit the 10deg retard limiter at 124degs
    (You can command more but there is no point as it will be mechanically limited and can sometimes also pull up a CEL)
    Hope that all makes sense LOL.
    Thank you. You do supply this forum with a wealth of knowledge.
    2018 Trackhawk PCM/TCM tune by Dusterhoff.
    Flex Fuel, MMX faux 95mm TB, GripTec 2.85, 10% ATI lower, FIC1200, ARH 1 7/8 w/cats, 180 T-stat

    13 Chrysler 300S, RAM BGE 412 stroker, cam motion 232/246 619/619 118 +4, ATI 18% OD pulley
    Whipple Gen5 3.0, 2.50 upper pulley, Smooth Boost controller, FIC 1200 inj. Nick W 108mm TB, FORE dual return fuel system, E85, FTI 2800 stall(SRT83380), SHR WAR Viking trans and valve body, Getrag 3.73, 1 7/8 kooks w/hi-flow cats, 3" Magnaflow Cat-back 943rwhp

  8. #8
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    Hemituna is who helped me understand where the cam is actually at based on being ground on different LSA than stock. He really knows his stuff with Dodge tuning and is a really nice guy.

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    So i really only need to know how much i want to advance or retard the cam at the different RPM.. Then i just add or pull timing up to what my limiter is set up for?.. Does this sound correct? My cam has a LSA of 113 and i'm running a limiter of 7*. SO full advance would be 120* (113+7=120) and Max retarded is 106* (113-7=106)..?? Now i just need to know what the pcm thinks is max advanced is use that number, which would actually be 120* for my cam.??? And using this train of thought through my desired cam angles setup the curve for the camshaft..?? By the way im using the demon plus cam from ost dyno which has LSA of 113* and Lobe separation angle of 123 in a 6.4. I just want to be sure i understand this. TIA

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    Both 6.4 & 6.2L have 120.5 LSA, and both have +14 ground into cam
    So at idle (when fully advanced), intake lobe is at 106.5 and exhaust is at 134.5 (can see this on logger)

    Demon Plus cam is 123 LSA with +10 (113 intake cl) ground into cam.
    So at idle (fully advanced) it will actually be at 113 intake CL and 133 exhaust CL

    BUT..... PCM still thinks it is a 120.5 LSA so will show 106.5 (134.5) even tho actual position is 113 (133).
    So we are actually 6.5 degs more RETARDED (intake cl) than PCM thinks and shows.

    As these engines use only the exhaust number to move the cam, to run it straight up at 123 LSA (123 cl intake, 123 cl exhaust) you will need to use 124.5 on exhaust cam table (10 degs retarded from full adv)
    Going to (for example) 128.0 from 124.5 on exhaust cam table would then advance the cam 3.5 degs from the 123/123
    Which would make actual position 119.5 intake and 126.5 exhaust.

    For a 6.2/6.4L with Demon Plus cam, I would start with 124.5 (which puts the cam at straight up with 123LSA+10) in the entire exhaust table and work from there.
    Last edited by Hemituna; 01-27-2020 at 10:11 PM.

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    I'm following along now thanks a ton. Only other question I have is how do you know how much is ground into the cam?? It dosent show anything on my cam card as to having any advance or retard ground I to the cam. Or I'm not smart enough to see it lol. I trust what you say just curious how to know on future builds

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    Disregard the above question. I googled it. And thank you hemituna for the excellent explanation.

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    Now my Tuning books state that both camshafts need to match total degrees of intake+exhaust=# for the factory cam. It uses the 5.7 which comes out at 128* (intake+exhaust=128*) Using your information of the stock 6.4 numbers we come up with 241* (106.5+134.5=241) and i see that when we use the demon cam it does not match (113+133=246)??? Am i missing something or am i just not interpreting what i've read right? Sorry if this seems like I'm beating a dead horse but just trying to understand this clearly..

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    Probably talking about advancing or retarding a cam not swapping to a different cam. It's very common an aftermarket cam will have more duration.

    My guess they mean you can't change how can is ground by moving it so you advance or retard and it effects both intake and exhaust so total duration doesn't change. So 123/123 straight up if you move it you might be 126/120, which still has the same total duration. You can move it but the total is a mechanical thing that you can't change. It's just how the cam is ground

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    Thnks ridenrunwv for all the help you've giving me, just trying to learn how all this works. I feel like im just to dumb to figure this out lol. All these numbers got my head all turned inside out Even the tuning books I have just don't seem to explain this part very well, just says do this and change that with out even taking into consideration the new cam specs. Which makes me think everyone who changes the cam is running around with the same numbers in there tune no matter what cam they have and that doesn't add up or even sound right to me.. and just for the record im referring to the number for WOT Desired angle-Base I am very grateful for all the support I have received so far and don't want to beat this to death. I have reached out to other places in hope that someone can dumb it down enough for me to understand

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    I don't think a lot of tuners understand it. I didn't expect the Tuning School book to go into much, if any, detail to the more advanced topics you're going to have questions about. What you're describing of just setting something and not understanding it is the norm for so many shops I've come across also honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    Both 6.4 & 6.2L have 120.5 LSA, and both have +14 ground into cam
    So at idle (when fully advanced), intake lobe is at 106.5 and exhaust is at 134.5 (can see this on logger)

    Demon Plus cam is 123 LSA with +10 (113 intake cl) ground into cam.
    So at idle (fully advanced) it will actually be at 113 intake CL and 133 exhaust CL

    BUT..... PCM still thinks it is a 120.5 LSA so will show 106.5 (134.5) even tho actual position is 113 (133).
    So we are actually 6.5 degs more RETARDED (intake cl) than PCM thinks and shows.

    As these engines use only the exhaust number to move the cam, to run it straight up at 123 LSA (123 cl intake, 123 cl exhaust) you will need to use 124.5 on exhaust cam table (10 degs retarded from full adv)
    Going to (for example) 128.0 from 124.5 on exhaust cam table would then advance the cam 3.5 degs from the 123/123
    Which would make actual position 119.5 intake and 126.5 exhaust.

    For a 6.2/6.4L with Demon Plus cam, I would start with 124.5 (which puts the cam at straight up with 123LSA+10) in the entire exhaust table and work from there.
    I might be wrong on thinking this but... if my cam has a ICL 113 and the cam is fully advanced at idle(Exhaust=120)(113+7 Lmitier=120*) then based on my limiter i installed i can move the retard the cam 14* which would put me at (exhaust=106) these are actual numbers Is this correct in my thinking???? Also how does the LSA come into play and also the advance ground into the cam.?? or Is the ICL 113 and Fully advanced set at 130? (113+10 advance ground into cam+7 for limiter=130*)??? Just trying to figure out how you got the number you did??? (113intake\133exhaust) for full advanced as my numbers dont match yours, again all these numbers are actual cam number not what the pcm is referencing

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    So we know the cam is installed at 113 as that's what the cam card states and the vvt limiter installed will only allow me to move the cam 14 total degrees. to utilize the vvt the best and get the best performance its ideal to have the cam at full advanced down low in the rpms and to retard it after peak torque. With this theory in mind im just having a hard time trying to figure out how everyone is coming up with the ACTUAL cam numbers. Its easy to cross the number over to what the pcm needs to see in the tune, I don't doubt that what i'm being told is correct but just having a hard time coming up with the same numbers no matter how i calculate them. Just looks like some weird voodoo math going on lol.

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    Do you mean finding the actual cam degrees that correspond to PCM full advance & retard? If so, Hemituna explains it here:
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post565719

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    Not that, just the actual cam numbers that you use for your exhaust cam number for wot and p/t. I cant seem to figure how hemituna calculate the numbers to get what I was told to use.
    I do not need the numbers that will be used in the tune but rather the actual number I'm at.