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Thread: Using a battery charger WHILE flashing(installing tune)

  1. #1

    Using a battery charger WHILE flashing(installing tune)

    I've done a search for this and am now more confused than before. I am not new to flashing ECU's as I am a tech that's been doing it for some time. Using OE tools, as well as J-2534 boxes, I have never had a failure outside a few ford 6.0 FCIMs being bad out of the box. This is however my first attempt at tuning, not doing anyting crazy, just cags delete and whatnot on my personal vette.

    My concerns are these:
    1. It seems with the MPVi2 it is not recommended to have the laptop plugged in to a good wall outlet, yet it is also recommended. Is there a clear concise answer to this?
    2. Using a battery charger hooked up to the battery while installing tune, good idea or bad?

    When flashing modules on vehicles with OE/J-2534 stuff, I have always used a battery charger, a good one of course with a flash program function to provide steady voltages. Most service manuals actually instruct to use them.

    Honestly do not want to brick any modules, especially not due to low voltage. Any info on experiences and/or recommendations would be most helpful. Thanks in advance!
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  2. #2
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    As long as the charger has a flash programming function and your using that then sure go for it. Laptop charger depends on grade of laptop and charger alike - keep in mind that this is all 1's and 0's getting transferred, so if anything hanky happens then a 1 or 0 can very easily get misinterpreted... Don't know if it is anymore, but seeing cars fixed even at the dealer just by reinstalling the same calibration correctly used to be a usual thing due to someone previously flashing one incorrectly
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  3. #3
    Been thinking about buying one of those chargers for home so I don't have to borrow one from the shop. Have a no name one at the house that I ran some tests on and it will keep B+ at 12.7v+/- .1v on a mid setting, very stable but only at 8A. Been a little hesitant to try that one, especially for my first "tune" flash. The snap on chargers are not cheap, but good and steady output is a must even when doing OE style flashes for bulletins or ECU replacements. Don't want a 0 or 1 to become a 3, might end up going forward in reverse.
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  4. #4
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    plugged in at home power point is fine as its not related to the vehicle unless u get surges i spose, but charging from the vehicle whilst plugged into mpvi2 to program it causes a loop where sometimes things can go wrong, the mpvi1 had issues with this so im not sure if they were resolved with the mpvi2 or just the bluetooth function fixes it anyway

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    The major concerns are your laptop shutting off(battery goes dead, screen saver, sleep mode etc) and causing an incomplete flash, the vehicle battery going dead mid flash causing an incomplete flash. There are also some chips that will not flash if the battery voltage is too high (charger set on high). Also using an inverter plugged into the car while flashing has been known to cause issues
    Michael Bray
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  6. #6
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    If you can find a manual battery charger, and verify it's only providing enough voltage to keep things stable and not actually charging, and that it has a decently clean noise-free output, then it's fine. The fancy computerized 'automatic' chargers are not a good idea as they think they are smarter than you are and can screw things up. You can also use a regulated power supply if a old-school charger isn't available. It's only there to compensate for any loads that might pop up while the flashing is in progress.

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner mbray01's Avatar
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    I find the best chargers are rv/marine power supplies. They provide a clean supply voltage, and are capable of keeping up with most any demand you you think of while flashing, they are also 1/4 the price of the recommended "flash capable" chargers
    Michael Bray
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  8. #8
    Doesn't sound much different from flashing OE cals. I set a perimeter around a car when I flash to keep things from getting played with. Thanks for the advice and the recommendation on the power supply. Certainly don't want to pay $900 for a battery charger plus it seems to be on back order. When reading my car the other night I did it with my meter, amp clamp, and batt charger. Held good numbers, should've checked the A/C ripple. Even thought about using my jump box. And for useless knowledge, my Z06 draws 11.7 amps with the key on engine off, all loads off.
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  9. #9
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    My old tuner guy told me to always have a battery charger hooked while flashing ECU. This was using SCT tuning handheld. Now I see where HPT recommends not using a battery charger while flashing. I've been doing what HPT has recommended. Same goes for not having the lap top hooked up to the power. From my understanding tuning software/hardware companies have different recommendations so it's best to follow each ones advise.

  10. #10
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mully95 View Post
    My old tuner guy told me to always have a battery charger hooked while flashing ECU. This was using SCT tuning handheld. Now I see where HPT recommends not using a battery charger while flashing. I've been doing what HPT has recommended. Same goes for not having the lap top hooked up to the power. From my understanding tuning software/hardware companies have different recommendations so it's best to follow each ones advise.
    Even GM says:
    Due to the time requirements of programming a controller, it is recommended that an external power source be used to maintain system voltage. Stable battery voltage is critical during programming. Any fluctuation, spiking, over voltage or loss of voltage will interrupt programming. To ensure trouble-free programming, GM recommends using one of the following external power sources:
    - A Midtronics PSC charger
    - A fully charged 12V jumper or booster pack disconnected from the AC voltage supply
    Please note that a "Midtronics PSC charger" is not a battery charger, in the Wal-Mart/Harbor Freight sense of the term.

    And, what HPT recommends against is not "having the lap top hooked up to power", they recommend against using an inverter powered by the vehicle's battery to power the laptop adapter while flashing. An external mains-voltage source powering the laptop adapter is absolutely fine.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    And, what HPT recommends against is not "having the lap top hooked up to power", they recommend against using an inverter powered by the vehicle's battery to power the laptop adapter while flashing. An external mains-voltage source powering the laptop adapter is absolutely fine.
    My bad... I could sworn I've read somewhere that HPT said not to have the power supply hooked up while flashing... LOL

  12. #12
    Inverters are a no no for me as a whole for any kind of programming, especially after reading some of the horror stories on here and other places. If my laptop needs power I will either charge the battery and wait to flash, or I will flash with the laptop connected to a wall outlet. Data logging connected to the vehicles inverter to charge laptop would probably be ok, as this would be no different than logging with an old school snap on brick scan tool for OBD1/OBDII supported vehicles. Most OBD1 connections require outside power source for the red brick to function. Logging is done with the vehicle running/driving so the inverter would be less of a drain and just like any other load at that point.

    What kicked off my whole questioning about battery chargers is the fact that with a fully charged battery, my Z06 draws the aforementioned 11.7A, and holds the battery around 11.9ish volts key on engine off and no other loads(lights, A/C, radio, etc). I have an older version shcumaker battery charger, and holds it about 12.4 volts with 9A output, therefore reducing the amperage draw to under 4A. Will be doing AC ripple testing soon, but if I can put 9A in and hold around 12.4V without excessive "noise" from the charger, this should keep the power levels perfectly safe for flashing. If there is too much "noise", I will go with Mbrays idea about a marine charger. I have access to a snap on charger with flash program mode at work, but prefer to keep my tuning out of the shop for my car. Don't want to pay the $800-900 for the snap on charger, and borrowing one on the weekends will get old real quick.

    Looking at it like this, ~$400 for good quality PCM, ~$45 programming to stock, $100 to license new PCM with HPT, possible $100K med bills from heart attack when PCM bricks from lack of power. Without heart attack, looking between $550-$1200 to fix bricked PCM depending on costs. Numbers above are my prices as a tech, not including the heart attack.

    Decent marine chargers start at $100, and go up. Money well spent for piece of mind and flawless flashing.
    Last edited by vettemakesemwet; 02-09-2020 at 12:11 PM.
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  13. #13
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    Nobody ever looks at it that way - especially love the heart attack comment...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
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  14. #14
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    There's a Midtronics PSC-550 on ebay right now for ~$300. No need for that specific unit though, any generic power supply that puts out a fixed voltage (usually adjustable, within a limited range, like 11-14V) at decent current (30-50A) will do the same thing. You just need something to compensate for key-on loads and keep the voltage stable.

    I would not use anything that says "battery charger" on the label unless it was an ancient, non-automatic, transformer based unit. Anything with a microcontroller is a no-go, at some point it will decide it's smarter than you are and do something you aren't expecting.

    Another thing to think about, is this really needed? How long does a write-calibration-only usually take? And how often will you need to do the longer write-entire? I doubt you need external power for a normal write-calibration if the battery is in good shape, and for the once-a-year write-entire it wouldn't be a big inconvenience to fully charge the battery and pull a bunch of fuses to reduce the load before the flash.

  15. #15
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    I flash a lot of vehicles. One thing I always do is try and start the vehicle before flashing and let it run for 30 seconds or so. If the battery has enough reserve to start a vehicle it should have the capacity to power the PCM while flashing. As stated the flash times on a write calibration is not that long. Just kill the auto headlights if on and the HVAC blower motor too if on. If you think you need more battery capacity I would use a DC battery jump box. Those typically don't have any AC to DC conversion going on when off their charge cord.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Nobody ever looks at it that way - especially love the heart attack comment...
    I have a knack for overthinking things at times. Saved my bacon more than not, so I will stay careful and paranoid. lol. Plus I like to add some comedic flair at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    There's a Midtronics PSC-550 on ebay right now for ~$300. No need for that specific unit though, any generic power supply that puts out a fixed voltage (usually adjustable, within a limited range, like 11-14V) at decent current (30-50A) will do the same thing. You just need something to compensate for key-on loads and keep the voltage stable.

    I would not use anything that says "battery charger" on the label unless it was an ancient, non-automatic, transformer based unit. Anything with a microcontroller is a no-go, at some point it will decide it's smarter than you are and do something you aren't expecting.

    Another thing to think about, is this really needed? How long does a write-calibration-only usually take? And how often will you need to do the longer write-entire? I doubt you need external power for a normal write-calibration if the battery is in good shape, and for the once-a-year write-entire it wouldn't be a big inconvenience to fully charge the battery and pull a bunch of fuses to reduce the load before the flash.
    Personal experiences with batteries failing in an instant are my main concern. Personal truck, no dragging of starter, everything was fine, shut truck off, ran into store, came back out, CLICK, no start, battery died that quick. Not the most common, and it may have had enough reserve to power the electronics, but certainly not the starter. Had other batteries fail with different circumstances with little to no warning.

    I have very limited flash experience with HPT, but so far it seems to take less than a minute to flash calibration only. Haven't tried a write entire yet, and am sort of scared to. Will only do that in most extreme needed circumstances.

    As far as OE flashing, I have alot of experience. BMW can take hours with ISTA/ICOM, depending on the car software level at start of programming. GM, Ford, and Chrysler take anywhere from 1 minute to 15 minutes depending on what is being programmed. All say to use a certain power supply like the midtronics unit. BMW and mercedes freak out during diagnostics alone sometimes due to low voltages. Don't even get me started on volvo. lol

    I agree with your statement of the microprocessor controlled chargers. My little one on
    max will turn off and back on at times, but on the mid setting it held steady for well over 30 minutes until I shut it off. Still not convinced it is the way to go. Leaning towards not. Amazon lists the PSC-550s for $300 new, another place has it for $420ish. I'd almost rather buy new for a that little more. I'm also picky about used stuff.

    My thinking may be skewed a bit, hence the conversation here. On a diesel truck that has 2 good batteries at key on engine off has a much better "reserve" or buffer if you will, because it has 2 batteries. Gas powered or anything with a single battery is more worrisome to me. Thinking a good and well charged jump box would be a good idea. It is a battery inside a plastic box, only electronic controls to it are for recharging it, and adds a nice buffer/reserve pad.

    I guess there are always the variables that can stick it in and break it off at ANY given time and there is nothing that can be done. But precautions are always a good thing as long as they do not cause more problems. Pulling fuses or disconnecting the component of concern is a sure fire way to keep that item from causing interference. Then again this line of argument plays devils advocate for benefits of bench programming. Nothing can interfere with a flash if nothing but power and programmer are connected.

    Thanks to all for the replies. Learning tuning as I go, and given my profession some things stick out that I need clarification on. I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 2xLS1 View Post
    I flash a lot of vehicles. One thing I always do is try and start the vehicle before flashing and let it run for 30 seconds or so. If the battery has enough reserve to start a vehicle it should have the capacity to power the PCM while flashing. As stated the flash times on a write calibration is not that long. Just kill the auto headlights if on and the HVAC blower motor too if on. If you think you need more battery capacity I would use a DC battery jump box. Those typically don't have any AC to DC conversion going on when off their charge cord.
    You were posting this as I was writing my story. The biggest discrepancy i've been able to see from OE flashing to HP flashing is the battery voltage, with no real clear answers, or they are buried too deep. See posts on here dating back 10+ years.

    With my overthinking, I did come to the same conclusion of using a jump box. It is a nice buffer for sake of sanity. Also helps to remember the basics, make sure the battery is good.

    Thanks for the reply!
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  18. #18
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    I have had two batteries do that "click = instant zero volts open circuit" thing. Both were Optimas. Avoid them like the fking plague.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    I have had two batteries do that "click = instant zero volts open circuit" thing. Both were Optimas. Avoid them like the fking plague.
    mine was a lead acid. Heard too many bad things about optimas not having anything close the rated reserve capacity. I am old school, lead acid is the most dependable I have found so far.
    03 Z06 stock.......for now
    05 Siearra 5.3 daily
    I have realized that tuning is a rabbit hole. No problem diving down this hole, in fact I jumped willingly. Just want to avoid hitting every ugly rock or root on the way down it.

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettemakesemwet View Post
    mine was a lead acid. Heard too many bad things about optimas not having anything close the rated reserve capacity. I am old school, lead acid is the most dependable I have found so far.
    I've had 2-3 stock aged GM batteries do this also... come to find out if I held the crank key long enough (load them) they would eventually burn off whatever was causing the loss of power, and eventually start. Figured I'd throw that out incase someone gets stranded in this situ.. there may be hope! DONT flash it in this condition!!

    I also find it very useful to simply hold the pedal to the floor see if you can crank the car 10-20 seconds at random. See if it starts cranking over slower or faster. If it starts cranking over faster with time sometimes I wonder if it's burning off something from the plates. As long as it doesnt stop cranking in 5-10s I consider it good. Quick battery health check! You can also check compression this way - listen to how consistent it turns over.

    For my flashing and logging I use an old Compaq laptop inverter in the car keeps the laptop charged even during flashes, lol. If car's been sitting in the garage awhile I use the manual Harbor Freight charger on 2 or 10amp. If you put it in high amp START mode it can trip the high current breaker without warning.
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