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Thread: Fueling/Tuning issues after 80lb injector install

  1. #1
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    Fueling/Tuning issues after 80lb injector install

    Alright guys, here goes nothing.
    I have been wrenching and tuning my Truck for the better part of a year and i think i have hit a roadblock with my tuning. Everything was going great, the normal learning process for a new venture. Had the tuning going towards being pretty dialed in but was running out of injector up top so decided to upgrade it to be safe. Here is the tune file prior to fuel upgrade:
    Final Tuned File 2.6.20.hpt

    Upgraded to a walbro 450, return style with boost regulated fpr and deka 80lb injectors from vsracing:fi114991

    After piecing together the how to's on how to get the bigger injectors going in the e38 system i just cant seem to get the tune to start dialing in. Realized while logging today that my commanded AFR is staying constant until PE kicks in instead of scaling with airflow. I've tried changing a few parameters to affect a change but without any luck leading me to believe i have overlooked or missed something in my injector tuning which is causing it to behave funny. Ive looked into and thought of the transient tables but my tables seem very different than anything i can find information on. Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated, I have been researching and racking my brain for a while now and can't seem to get it figured out. Below is my current working tune and a scan log showing what I'm talking about:
    VE Tune Part 2 run 29 stoich blend.hpt20-02-19 19-44-30.hpl

    With the commanded AFR staying constant seems like it will not be possible to tune the tables with any sort of real world curve and the setup will either be commanding lean or rich so ive scaled it to the rich side for now to be safe

    My Setup :
    2007.5 GMC Sierra
    E38 ecm with 2Bar OS
    6.0
    243 heads
    rebuilt bottom end with Stock internals other than upgraded pistons/rings
    Comp 1.7 rockers
    ls7 lifters
    cam specs:
    Lift: 0.560"/0.560"
    Duration @ 0.050": 216?/220?
    Advertised Duration: 285?/292?
    Lobe Separation: 114?
    TSP .660 dual valve springs
    Twin GT35 turbos making 10lbs of boost
    walbro 450
    boost regulated fpr
    deka 80lb injectors

    Truck was flex fuel stock and also an in between year for trucks so e38/gen 4 platform but a mix of early and late tuning parameters making it seem as though its sort of a one off. Not a whole lot of similar setups so I've pieced together the info and tuning knowledge I have.

    Any help with this is greatly appreciated!

  2. #2
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    disable the virtual flex it just dosnt work right and will cause dramas best to get actual sensor if u want to go flex, still have to make changes to suit the boost referenced reg, need to disable the maf properly if ur ment to be SD few adjustments needed, commanded afr should be constant till u hit PE or BE

  3. #3
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    I'm not planning on running flex fuel, just premium pump 91. Still need to disable virtual flex? Won't it only hit that table if it sees e85 or better with the stock flex fuel sensor? What changes are still needed for the fpr? I thought i had hit them all. As far as i can tell the MAF is disabled in engine diagnostics and O2s are disabled in ect readiness in the 2nd tune i posted where I am tuning the VE tables. I have been tuning the MAF and VE tables respectively with plans to run it as a daily driver with both factory NB and the combination of closed loop and open loop for driveability. If commanded AFR stays the same till PE or BE wont that make for a flat and spikey instead of linear curve on my base MAF and VE tables when dialing them in? I could be wrong but I thought the commanded AFR should scale with airflow and rpm to produce a curve and slightly richen so that you are starting at stoich and then gradually richening the mix as load or rpm increases. If im losing my mind and the airflow will scale it correctly with a constant AFR till PE then thats great, just seems like my WBerror% is correcting me way lean in my tables and when i switched back to a normal closed/open loop setup with MAF/VE/NB o2 active it would lean out on accel; richen up on decel, idle and cruising which is exactly what i dont want right? Pre injector install with the first tune I posted it was running great with those settings active after I got the tune dialed in. Would gradually richen under accel, lean out under decel and stay at stoich while cruising and idling.In my mind the ideal setting would be for the car to idle and cruise at 14.67, lean out on decel and richen gradually to 12.5 or so on acceleration. PE and BE would increase richness to 11.5 or so. Am i way off base in that thinking?

  4. #4
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    i see the table for virtual flex vs sensor you are talking about now. Weird that with an actual factory sensor the stock setting would be virtual instead of sensor operated

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    I dont see a wideband, but it looks like your Open Loop? What are you trying to do again?

    1) You cant tune open loop without a wideband. They will either read rich or lean, so maybe that's all the problem is? AT WOT or PE you definalty want your narrow band 02's to read over 850mv but don't tune that way since all you know is it's richer than 14.7. Get a wideband, I would not go in PE or WOT without a wideband.
    2) you can tune closed loop/normal driving with closed loop narrowband 02's.
    3) If your using narrowband 02's to try to tune rich or lean in open loop, that is your problem since they will only read rich/lean.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU)
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  6. #6
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    yes, I have an Innovative Wideband that I am tuning with, its there in the scan file in graphs(2 large gauges, one being the %error, the other the WB AFR) and in charts in the bottom group. Yes, the scan I posted is in open loop tuning the VE tables. Trying to dial in the VE and MAF tables respectively and just wondering if I've missed something. I would prefer to tune in Lambda but i cant figure out how to switch the LC2 gauge over to Lambda so for now tuning with AFR. Just having a rough go dialing in the tables after the injector change, seems like it wants me to lean out the tables alot! If i begin to lean out the tables with my error% halfs then it starts to really lean out the AFR. I think i have decent grasp of what ive changed and what it effects but perhaps i have missed something in the injector tune that is causing it to behave funny. or maybe that's just the nature of the change. Wanted to pick the brain of more experienced hands and see if anyone had some insight.
    20-02-20 11-21-31.hpl
    VE Tune Part 2 run 30 flex sensor be and pe.hpt

    This is my latest tune with the Flex Table set to sensor as recommended above and my latest scan
    I also adjusted to PE and BE tables to come on sooner to avoid any lean conditions

  7. #7
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    Basically I am tuning in open loop with the WB. Disbaling MAF/NBO2s to tune the VE tables and disabling DA/NBO2s to tune the MAF. The goal being to get these tables dialed in so i can run closed loop with all systems enabled and have a reliable daily driver with the fun of boost should I want to hand someone their wooden screws

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zultan View Post
    yes, I have an Innovative Wideband that I am tuning with, its there in the scan file in graphs(2 large gauges, one being the %error, the other the WB AFR) and in charts in the bottom group. Yes, the scan I posted is in open loop tuning the VE tables. Trying to dial in the VE and MAF tables respectively and just wondering if I've missed something. I would prefer to tune in Lambda but i cant figure out how to switch the LC2 gauge over to Lambda so for now tuning with AFR. Just having a rough go dialing in the tables after the injector change, seems like it wants me to lean out the tables alot! If i begin to lean out the tables with my error% halfs then it starts to really lean out the AFR. I think i have decent grasp of what ive changed and what it effects but perhaps i have missed something in the injector tune that is causing it to behave funny. or maybe that's just the nature of the change. Wanted to pick the brain of more experienced hands and see if anyone had some insight.
    20-02-20 11-21-31.hpl
    VE Tune Part 2 run 30 flex sensor be and pe.hpt

    This is my latest tune with the Flex Table set to sensor as recommended above and my latest scan
    I also adjusted to PE and BE tables to come on sooner to avoid any lean conditions
    I swear I'm not seeing a WB. Your layout doesn't carry over, just the channels. Channels are the only thing of importance.

    In Channels I dont see a WB. How do you have it connected?

    You might have some custom math calc or something else? That would explain why your having problems, the WB may not actually be connected to the data?

    Here's your channels.. Where is it?

    Name Value
    Engine RPM (SAE) 786 rpm
    Power Enrichment Off
    PE/COT Advance 0.0 ?
    Burst Knock Retard 0.0 ?
    Flex Fuel Advance 0.0 ?
    Torque Mgt Advance 0.0 ?
    Traction Control Torque 2.3 %
    Traction Control Desired Torque 0.0 %
    Knock Learn Factor 0.000
    Barometric Pressure (SAE) 96 kPa
    Boost Solenoid Control 0.0 %
    Barometric Pressure Sensor 0.00 V
    Barometric Pressure 13.9 psi
    Engine Oil Pressure 31.9 psi
    Barometric Pressure 13.9 psi
    Idle Base Advance 18.9 ?
    Idle Adapt Advance 0.9 ?
    Dynamic Airflow 47.4 lb/h
    AC Pressure Sensor 1.25 V
    Closed Loop Active No
    Commanded Throttle Actuator (SAE) 9.8 %
    Ethanol Fuel % (SAE) 0.0 %
    Throttle Desired Position 9.9 %
    Mass Airflow Sensor 3,115 Hz
    Throttle Control Source Idle
    Mass Airflow (SAE) 0.80 lb/min
    Air Calc Mode Normal
    Control Module Voltage 14.30 V
    Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure (SAE) 41 kPa
    Idle Desired RPM 800 rpm
    Throttle Position (SAE) 20.4 %

    Delivered Engine Torque 17 lb?ft
    Trans Fluid Temp 117 ?F
    Engine Torque 18 lb?ft
    Injector Pulse Width Avg. Bank 1 0.8 ms
    Injector Pulse Width Avg. Bank 2 0.8 ms
    Trans Current Gear 1
    Cylinder Airmass 0.11 g
    Base Advance 22.0 ?
    Coolant Advance 0.0 ?
    Knock Retard 0.0 ?

    Air-Fuel Ratio Commanded 29.30
    Vehicle Speed (SAE) 0 mph
    Engine Coolant Temp (SAE) 192 ?F
    Intake Air Temp (SAE) 95 ?F
    Timing Advance (SAE) 18.5 ?
    Equivalence Ratio Commanded (SAE) 0.998 λ
    O2 Voltage B1S1 (SAE) 0.948 V
    O2 Voltage B2S1 (SAE) 0.878 V
    Fuel System #1 Status (SAE) OL - Not Ready
    Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 (SAE) 0.0 %
    Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 1 (SAE) 0.0 %
    Short Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 (SAE) 0.0 %
    Long Term Fuel Trim Bank 2 (SAE) 0.0 %
    Last edited by 10_SS; 02-20-2020 at 10:09 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU)
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  9. #9
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    Yeah, weird that the other stuff doesn't carry over. Is that common? Yes, I have it linked into the ECM through the AC pressure sensor via some custom math and a 3 pole switch. The WB is correct on the scanner, matches and scales with my gauge and I've double and triple checked my %error math, its on point as well. Getting the injectors dialed in was probably the least straight forward process of all the tuning I have done so i suppose that's where I'm concerned that i missed something that is affecting the adaptability of the system. I realize that everyone's setup is unique to what they are running just seeing if more experienced hands can spot something in my tune that i have overlooked. It runs good; still working on the rich side down low and a little lean up top (hard to street tune this much torque with a truck, haha). The idle is good but i feel like it wants to lean out the VE cells while driving and richen them while idling(richer in park) which is why i originally thought i might need to tweek something in the transient fueling but my tables dont match up with anything i have found in the forums about tuning for transient fueling so I've left them alone. Might even be as "simple" as the ETC scalar to be honest but that's the snake eating its own tail. Always be tuning right

  10. #10
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    move the dynamic airflow disable/enable to 8192 and 8092, maf fail high 2 and low 1, change high/low count threshold to zero, dct PO0101, 0102, 0103 fail on first error, if u have a flex sensor enable the sensor but if u dont then dont use the virtual, ecm12308 to suit referenced reg u need to copy the line base pressure column to all columns so if u are running line pressure at 400kpa (key on engine not running) copy that column into all as u dont need it to make offset changes based on delta as the reg is doing it now, also halve the IVT terms, ecm33392 make all 1.0, ecm12303 u will need to populate as all zero dosnt work if u have a stock file use those values and then halve them,

  11. #11
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    Thank you so much for the advice! I've got all that modified and will give it a go in the morning with the exception of the ecm12303. my stock file was zeroed and all the stock e38 files i have compared to are also zeroed. Any other ideas on how to populate that table?

  12. #12
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    tracked down a stock injector e38 file that had 12303 data in it. I'll half that and give it a shot

  13. #13
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    yea it takes time to dial that one in but should be ok for a bit as its better then being zeroed, then u will just have to adjust fuel to dial in again as it should be more consistent now hopefully

  14. #14
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    Many thanks 07GTS!!! The tune is reacting and behaving much better now, finally feel like I'm back on the right track after the changes. Can't thank you enough!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zultan View Post
    Many thanks 07GTS!!! The tune is reacting and behaving much better now, finally feel like I'm back on the right track after the changes. Can't thank you enough!
    no worries, also when ur maf failed u should change the "effective area" max fail from 60 make it 200 it will help with starts/cold starts

  16. #16
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    Ok, the tune is reacting better to tuning but I have lost WOT. The truck stumbles all over itself when i put more than 30% throttle in. If i feather the throttle in slowly it runs like a raped ape but if i give it more then it just bogs and feels like it is missing. I've noticed that since implementing the fi changes the PW is way up. before i was hitting 10 psi with 9ms pw. now im hitting that at 2-3 psi. i keep adding fuel to the tables but it is leaning out which is probably what is causing it to stumble. Id prefer not to blow this motor up attempting to dial it in. Any thoughts on what is causing this. Is my configuration limiting my injectors and causing them to work harder than they should. it was able to make the power before tuning the injectors so that is the only change affecting this. I have attached a pre injector dial in and post injector dial in log and tune. Any help with this is greatly appreciated guys
    Pre injector dial in:
    VE Tune Part 2 run 36.hpt
    20-02-20 11-21-31.hpl
    Post:
    20-02-25 15-08-13.hpl
    VE Tune Part 2 run 62.hpt

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner Lakegoat's Avatar
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    You have failed the maf in engine diag--airflow. You also need to go to dtc's and make P0101,102,103 to Mil on first error instead of no error.
    You have 6 degrees of knock in that first log. Where is the wideband?
    I don't know what you mean--tuning the injectors. Put in the data for those injectors and leave it. Tune the fuel and spark tables.
    2005 GTO, TrickFlow 225, Magnuson 2300, 4L80, 4 link 8.8
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  18. #18
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    Yes, I have failed the MAF and am currently working on the VE tables. Yes dtc's 101, 102 and 103 are set to MIL on first error. these were adjust as suggested by 07GTS , it was after his suggestions that the tuning got better and more on point but i lost WOT. Yes, there is knock in that log but i believe it is false knock associated with something in the tune. I've yet to hear any pinging and i just pulled and replaced spark plugs last weekend to confirm no signs of actual knock. Tuning the injectors has been a non stop affair as there are multiple opinions on what the "data" for injectors is, combined with multiple datas for individual platforms i.e. gen 3,4,5 ecm 38, older newer etc. These deka 80's in particular seem notorious for it. Right now I am running IC's deka 80 data along with 07GTS recommended changes. Tuning the fuel was not as linear a process after changing injectors and going to the referenced fpr as before the fueling upgrades before making the suggested changes. but since doing so the truck stumbles and falls on its face when given WOT making dialing in that part of the fuel map impossible at the moment

  19. #19
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    I also have a surging idle on cold start for the first 60-90 seconds of operation since changes if that makes any sense to anyone

  20. #20
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    Also, yes. I have a wideband. It is setup through a custom math and run through the ac pressure sensor