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Thread: Open Loop Target Lambda

  1. #1

    Open Loop Target Lambda

    In regards to the open loop target on these cars...

    Judging off your explanation of this parameter, are we to understand that the ECU will actively try to target the afr shown at WOT or is this just a passive table that is a goal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    In regards to the open loop target on these cars...

    Judging off your explanation of this parameter, are we to understand that the ECU will actively try to target the afr shown at WOT or is this just a passive table that is a goal?
    Are you talking about the fuel enrichment map? If you are and the car/truck has the newer wideband 02 sensors it will actively target that AFR. Before I had software to tune Nissan's I had a 2012 Titan. It had the factory widebands. With a Hypertech programmer it had a target of 12.6:1. It always ran around 12.6:1 no matter what I did to it. I ran Hypertech on it from a stock truck to having an Airaid MXP4, ported throttle body, high flow B-pipes, and dual 2.5" to 3.5" exhaust with merge Y. It was a flex fuel truck though. Anytime I would alter the airflow with a mod it would throw itself into a relearn mode. The ethanol percentage would jump way up and the truck would run a bit weak and get crap mileage. After a 20-50 miles the ethanol percentage would drop back to normal, the afr adjustment percentages would shift around and it would wake up very noticeably. It would then hit the AFR targets at 12.6 and run at 34* total timing.

    My Infiniti G35 3.5HR and M56S both adjusted to the target AFR pretty well too. My mom's 2011 Pathfinder hits the target as well.

    I have tuned Nissans and Infiniti with Uprev, but not with HP yet. Have not bought the new interface yet, but hope to someday soon.
    Last edited by Fast4.7; 03-09-2020 at 01:44 AM.

  3. #3
    Excellent to hear. Thank you!

    I found that the 07 350Z I was going to tune with HP actually has the older unsupported ECM still. He has purchased the UpRev tuner package and we will be using that when it arrives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    Excellent to hear. Thank you!

    I found that the 07 350Z I was going to tune with HP actually has the older unsupported ECM still. He has purchased the UpRev tuner package and we will be using that when it arrives.
    I am guessing the older unsupported ECU is either for a 3.5DE or a 3.5DE Revup?

    On my 2007 3.5HR I found most of my power improvements via cam phasing. From the factory the cam phasing is all about nitrogen oxide emissions and preventing unburned hydrocarbons from coming out of the tail pipes. I ended up with much more exhaust cam retard at high rpm and less retard at lower rpm.

  5. #5
    It is an HR, but the ecu is not supported. Not sure on the exact details of why. It's an automatic convertible, so maybe they were the black sheep at Nissan or something. I have also read/seen testing where more intake advance in the low/mid range has a positive effect as well, and then pulling it back to 0 by redline. We are just doing some road tuning initially, and then later this spring we will get it on the dyno to see what it can really do.

    Thanks!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    It is an HR, but the ecu is not supported. Not sure on the exact details of why. It's an automatic convertible, so maybe they were the black sheep at Nissan or something. I have also read/seen testing where more intake advance in the low/mid range has a positive effect as well, and then pulling it back to 0 by redline. We are just doing some road tuning initially, and then later this spring we will get it on the dyno to see what it can really do.

    Thanks!
    2007 was one of those weird mixed ECU years with Nissan. For some they used the older controller which only supported external k-line communications. The newer 7058 that year got the luck of getting CAN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    It is an HR, but the ecu is not supported. Not sure on the exact details of why. It's an automatic convertible, so maybe they were the black sheep at Nissan or something. I have also read/seen testing where more intake advance in the low/mid range has a positive effect as well, and then pulling it back to 0 by redline. We are just doing some road tuning initially, and then later this spring we will get it on the dyno to see what it can really do.

    Thanks!
    I have some tables I have worked on in my 07 G35 3.5HR Auto sedan I can send to you or possibly attach as an Excel file.

    With some intake/exhaust mods it is making 326 hp and 282 tq at the wheels on a 204K mile engine.

    It made 296 hp prior to tuning. I gained like 4-5 hp fattening the car up from 13.2:1 to 12.6 The rest of the gains came from the cam tables.

    I am actually running less intake cam advance.

  8. #8
    Excellent, You could go ahead and post them here if you would like. That is a pretty impressive gain from a car that a lot of people were saying tuning is worth it on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    Excellent, You could go ahead and post them here if you would like. That is a pretty impressive gain from a car that a lot of people were saying tuning is worth it on!
    The power gains from tuning feel great. However that being said the tuning has transformed EVERYTHING about the car. The transmission shifts much quicker, at WOT it shifts firm enough to chirp the tires 1-2 and 2-3. It has better throttle response off-idle and seems to never stop pulling.

    I copied the values straight from Uprev tables. They are hex and will copy right into the appropriate tables.

    Keep in mind every car is different, but this should be a decent starting point for a healthy car with some airflow enhancing bolt-ons. Intakes with stock diameter at the MAF, high flow or catless midpipes, headers and high flow exhaust. I tuned the MAF curve pretty well but had to lean out the high rpm decel and idle area a little in the compensation table. The MAFs are also maxed out at 278 gms/sec and hold steady there above 6,000 rpm. I had to add some fuel in the compensation table to get the engine enough to drink. I meant to say in the previous post it gained 4-5 HP in the midrange fattening up the AFR to 12.6. At peak HP it likes 13.0-13.2. I know Technosquare used to run these at 13.5 for peak power but this is not a race car and I don't want to put that kind of heat into the pistons and exhaust valves. I also had to increase fuel delivery 2% on Bank 1 to even out the air/fuel ratio and fuel trims via injector compensations. The engine ran noticeably smoother after. Years ago a company tested all different kinds of headers and exhausts on the 3.5HR. They found the best average gains with 2.25" merge collectors and 2.25" test pipes. It seems everything now is based on 2.5". Probably some torque in the low-midrange being sacraficed by the 2.5" system but this car would never plant the extra torque at WOT. I know the high flow cats are costing a couple of HP but have to have cats for visual inspection. I ported a 3.7 lower intake and plenum for it. I have the larger 3.7 injectors and 3.7 fuel rail off the same low mileage 3.7. I have not had time to play around with it. I hear the runners are shorter and it will shift my torque curve higher. I think I could get to 340 hp at the wheels with the 3.7 top end. I hear a set of 3" admin tuning intakes gain 10 hp over the best commercially available intake but I drive this car year round and would be scared to hydro lock it in these Texas downpours. If the car had a 6spd it would probably already be in the 335-340 hp range on a Dynojet.
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    Last edited by Fast4.7; 03-13-2020 at 03:09 PM.

  10. #10
    Great! Thanks, again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    Great! Thanks, again!
    No problem...I have revised the cam timing maps again. In the 1,000-3,500 rpm range at cruising speeds I have advanced both the intake and exhaust cams an additional 5*. Intake cam map +5* and exhaust retard map -5* The exhaust is much quieter under light to medium engine load and the car has more torque at cruising speed. I may advance the exhaust cams a touch more under moderate load cruise like pulling a long hill in OD to see if I can get even more torque. I also added a touch more timing now that I have knock phones. I am up from 29* to 32* at WOT. Cruise timing is 50-52*. At 34-35* WOT timing I could hear some knock in the phones. Power is definately up a little more. My last highway trip of about 120 miles mostly through the country averaged 25 mpg at 60 mph average speed. There was some traffic, some traffic lights and a few aggressive passes on 2 lane road. On the open road I cruised near the speed limit that varies 55 to 75 mph with a high speed of about 82 mph in the logs. There are some long uphill grades on the 75 mph section. Turning 3,200 rpm the car stays in high gear and effortlessly climbs with the cruise set. If I can keep my foot out of it I am averaging 20-21 mpg around town. Before advancing the cams more the car had a drone at 65-75 mph from the exhaust. Now it is almost silent. I have a feeling it will be even quieter with the exhaust cams advanced another 5* trapping the still expanding gases in the cylinder longer.

    I ordered a cheap CAI kit off Amazon for the included filters and heat shields. I ordered a pair of 2.75" OD maf housings as well. I am not going to use the aluminum tubes with the stock 2.25" ID maf section rather my 2.7" ID HPS silicone intake tubes. I will have to rescale and retune the MAF tables but the intakes will be much higher flowing with the smallest point being about 2.65" diameter. The stock air boxes are only 2.25" ID where the MAFs sit. I am seeing a noticeable intake vacuum increase above 5,500 rpm as it sits. If I see another 10-15 hp it will be worth the $250 price and add a performance look under the hood. Plus a VQ at 5,000+ rpm just sounds beastly with dual open filters under the hood.

    I will be installing the 3.7 upper plenum and lower intake I have ported to see how it responds as well. I would love to see 350 whp with an automatic. I think this little 3.5HR can see 400 hp crank without opening it up.
    Last edited by Fast4.7; 03-22-2020 at 11:37 AM.

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    Fitted the cold air intakes with the aluminum tubes this morning and had to make the same trip out of town. Looks like my MAF housings will not be here until sometime in June. I advanced the exhaust cams 5* more in the 1,000-3,500 rpm range up to about 1/2 throttle and interpolated down to the WOT values. Between the intakes and more advanced exhaust cams the car has even more torque. Running 75 mph the TPS is about 2% lower on the throttle bodies than before. Exhaust is even quieter under load. This car will cruise around town seamlessly at 1,200-1,500 rpm in high gear now. Netted 26.5 mpg for this trip under similar driving conditions. IATs are running slightly warmer around town with the metal intake tubes. IATs were about 110F vs 100F in the same ambient temps vs the OEM sealed air boxes. Another thing I noticed. Climbing a long steep hill with a climbing lane that I frequently go up, stock cam phasing had this car showing 12 mpg going up, now it holds around 18-20. No longer requires a massive increase in accelerator pedal position to hold 75 mph.

    Find it funny that some pro Nissan tuners were saying cam angle adjustments are a waste of time.

    That being said the cams do not advance or retard until the engine goes into closed loop. Makes the engine an absolute DOG until it gets a little heat into it. After all the datalogging I now know why this car always feels terrible on cold mornings. Give it a little throttle and it has always fallen on its face cold. With the revised cam maps it is even more noticeable than it was.

    So far this car has taken a 13.5s 6.0L swapped 98 C1500, 370Z Nismo, a 6.2/Auto Camaro and a 5.0L Mustang in races from a stop up to about 90 mph. It feels every bit like a high 12 second car which is almost a second quicker than stock. Makes me want to build the 3.7 lower end I have. Setup would be 3.7 crank & rods, 12:1 pistons for the 3.7/HR hybrid, ported 3.5HR heads and Tomei 272 cams. If the engine comes out, a 6spd will be going in place of the Auto too.
    Last edited by Fast4.7; 03-24-2020 at 12:58 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast4.7 View Post
    Fitted the cold air intakes with the aluminum tubes this morning and had to make the same trip out of town. Looks like my MAF housings will not be here until sometime in June. I advanced the exhaust cams 5* more in the 1,000-3,500 rpm range up to about 1/2 throttle and interpolated down to the WOT values. Between the intakes and more advanced exhaust cams the car has even more torque. Running 75 mph the TPS is about 2% lower on the throttle bodies than before. Exhaust is even quieter under load. This car will cruise around town seamlessly at 1,200-1,500 rpm in high gear now. Netted 26.5 mpg for this trip under similar driving conditions. IATs are running slightly warmer around town with the metal intake tubes. IATs were about 110F vs 100F in the same ambient temps vs the OEM sealed air boxes. Another thing I noticed. Climbing a long steep hill with a climbing lane that I frequently go up, stock cam phasing had this car showing 12 mpg going up, now it holds around 18-20. No longer requires a massive increase in accelerator pedal position to hold 75 mph.

    Find it funny that some pro Nissan tuners were saying cam angle adjustments are a waste of time.

    That being said the cams do not advance or retard until the engine goes into closed loop. Makes the engine an absolute DOG until it gets a little heat into it. After all the datalogging I now know why this car always feels terrible on cold mornings. Give it a little throttle and it has always fallen on its face cold. With the revised cam maps it is even more noticeable than it was.

    So far this car has taken a 13.5s 6.0L swapped 98 C1500, 370Z Nismo, a 6.2/Auto Camaro and a 5.0L Mustang in races from a stop up to about 90 mph. It feels every bit like a high 12 second car which is almost a second quicker than stock. Makes me want to build the 3.7 lower end I have. Setup would be 3.7 crank & rods, 12:1 pistons for the 3.7/HR hybrid, ported 3.5HR heads and Tomei 272 cams. If the engine comes out, a 6spd will be going in place of the Auto too.
    That sounds like a solid setup! I haven't had a chance to meet back up with the guy I am going to do the tuning for due to weather/scheduling issues, but we are hoping to on Thursday. I will let you know how it all goes!

    Side note, I wonder if there is a value hidden somewhere that we could manipulate to cause the car to go into closed loop earlier...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    That sounds like a solid setup! I haven't had a chance to meet back up with the guy I am going to do the tuning for due to weather/scheduling issues, but we are hoping to on Thursday. I will let you know how it all goes!

    Side note, I wonder if there is a value hidden somewhere that we could manipulate to cause the car to go into closed loop earlier...
    Unfortunately not in Uprev. Maybe HP Tuners can find it. Also that being said I have tried commanding leaner than 14.7:1 at cruising speed and load with no effect. There seems to be a lean limit at 14.7:1 for commanded air/fuel ratio hidden in the ECU as well. I would love to cruise at 16-16.5:1 air/fuel ratio for maximum fuel economy.

    When you get his car on the dyno, I would love to see what you get power wise before and after. This little car has turned into more of a beast than I ever thought it would given how many people trash talk the 3.5HR for lack of gains. If it is a stick car I would love to see you pull it from about 1,500-3,000 rpm range. Feels like the car gained 50 ft/lbs down in that RPM range as easily as it boils the tires now.

    One other thing, I shifted the cooling fan PWM table down to keep the engine running cooler. Fans are now 55 percent at 186F and 100 percent even at 0 mph at 192F. It no longer heat soaks around town and gets the laggy feeling it had running at 210F. Charging system is still working great even with the underdrive pulley and the a/c on. A/C is getting colder at idle than it ever has too. The hottest I have seen it run is 192F now. Thinking of swapping the thermostat for a cooler 2008 G37 stat. Those had a factory spec of 170F rather than 180F. I had the Nismo 144F stat in both of my Titans and my M56S and they ran in the 165-170F range. All 3 saw around 2-3 tenths ET reduction in the 1/8 mile running cooler and it did not seem to effect the MPG or heater in our mild winters. The transmission runs much cooler around town with the fans running at a higher speed and the cooler sitting in cooler coolant. I was about to add an external cooler but altering the fans seems to have negated the need to. They are stabilizing about 170-180F now vs 210-220 before. Engine oil temps also never get over 240F where they flirted with 290F before. The car is just all around happier now and never derates itself like it did stock for high fluid temps. Luckily the VQs do not derate themself as much as the VK56VD though. In weather over 85F that car was almost scary to pull out into traffic. You never knew if it was going to fall on its face or actually go even if you gave it WOT it had a massive delay in power where it felt like it was running on 2 cylinders. Adding a massive oil cooler to keep the oil under 210F fixed that issue.
    Last edited by Fast4.7; 03-24-2020 at 09:46 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fast4.7 View Post
    Unfortunately not in Uprev. Maybe HP Tuners can find it. Also that being said I have tried commanding leaner than 14.7:1 at cruising speed and load with no effect. There seems to be a lean limit at 14.7:1 for commanded air/fuel ratio hidden in the ECU as well. I would love to cruise at 16-16.5:1 air/fuel ratio for maximum fuel economy.

    When you get his car on the dyno, I would love to see what you get power wise before and after. This little car has turned into more of a beast than I ever thought it would given how many people trash talk the 3.5HR for lack of gains. If it is a stick car I would love to see you pull it from about 1,500-3,000 rpm range. Feels like the car gained 50 ft/lbs down in that RPM range as easily as it boils the tires now.

    One other thing, I shifted the cooling fan PWM table down to keep the engine running cooler. Fans are now 55 percent at 186F and 100 percent even at 0 mph at 192F. It no longer heat soaks around town and gets the laggy feeling it had running at 210F. Charging system is still working great even with the underdrive pulley and the a/c on. A/C is getting colder at idle than it ever has too. The hottest I have seen it run is 192F now. Thinking of swapping the thermostat for a cooler 2008 G37 stat. Those had a factory spec of 170F rather than 180F. I had the Nismo 144F stat in both of my Titans and my M56S and they ran in the 165-170F range. All 3 saw around 2-3 tenths ET reduction in the 1/8 mile running cooler and it did not seem to effect the MPG or heater in our mild winters. The transmission runs much cooler around town with the fans running at a higher speed and the cooler sitting in cooler coolant. I was about to add an external cooler but altering the fans seems to have negated the need to. They are stabilizing about 170-180F now vs 210-220 before. Engine oil temps also never get over 240F where they flirted with 290F before. The car is just all around happier now and never derates itself like it did stock for high fluid temps. Luckily the VQs do not derate themself as much as the VK56VD though. In weather over 85F that car was almost scary to pull out into traffic. You never knew if it was going to fall on its face or actually go even if you gave it WOT it had a massive delay in power where it felt like it was running on 2 cylinders. Adding a massive oil cooler to keep the oil under 210F fixed that issue.
    His is an auto so we will be stuck with whatever the ecu will let us do on the dyno. I will keep the stock calibration though and we can do a back to back test to see what the difference was between stock and my final cal. I will mention the colder thermostat to him and see if he wants to do it. We are supposed to meet up tomorrow evening as long as the weather isn't trash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    His is an auto so we will be stuck with whatever the ecu will let us do on the dyno. I will keep the stock calibration though and we can do a back to back test to see what the difference was between stock and my final cal. I will mention the colder thermostat to him and see if he wants to do it. We are supposed to meet up tomorrow evening as long as the weather isn't trash.
    Any luck yet?

    Got the 170*F stat swapped in this morning and played with the fan temps a little to make use of the cooler stat. Engine is running 176-180*F. IATs dropped about 10-15*F around town. Car still runs fantastically. Was nearly 90*F this afternoon and the IATs stayed around 120*F. Car consistantly feels like it does before it heat soaks. I need to install the weatherstrip on my heatshields when I have a moment. Ran out of time the other day when I installed the intakes. Ran put of time today doing the thermostat. 10-7 schedule at work is not leaving alot of time for wrenching. Also deleted the PCV crossover plumbing and hooked the PCV vent to the driverside intake alone. Really simplified and cleaned up everything. When I get the 2.75" MAF housings I will re-install the crossover along with a Z1 Motorsports silicone hose set. As large as the crossover hoses are between the intake tubes it seems like it might be an air balance of some kind but my fuel trims are holdong steady. Running slightly richer with the intakes but not too much richer. Running around 12.9 now rather than 13.2 at high rpm and leans to 13.3 near the shift points.
    Last edited by Fast4.7; 03-26-2020 at 10:49 PM.

  17. #17
    I had a reply typed up and must not have sent it!

    So we finally got to do some tuning. It was going great until I hit some sort of limiter after tweaking the cam timing maps. It was pulling like a freight train until about 500 rpm before the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts, when it would act like you completely let off the throttle and timing would go from 28? to -4?. Any idea what could cause that? We were out of time and I didn't get to look into it any further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    I had a reply typed up and must not have sent it!

    So we finally got to do some tuning. It was going great until I hit some sort of limiter after tweaking the cam timing maps. It was pulling like a freight train until about 500 rpm before the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts, when it would act like you completely let off the throttle and timing would go from 28? to -4?. Any idea what could cause that? We were out of time and I didn't get to look into it any further.

    Probably soft shutdown for torque management. Look at the throttle rev limiter. Increase it a few hundred rpm. My trans shifts about 7500 rpm at WOT. I think it was set around 7250 stock. Were the throttle bodies closing?

    You said it was pulling like a freight train. What kind of power gains did you find so far?

  19. #19
    Not sure on the gains. We were doing road tuning. The owner said "HOLY SH*T" after he drove it with the new tune, so it must have been somewhat better lol. We will set up a dyno appointment after this whole Covid-19 thing is over.

    I will check out the torque management and throttle rev limiter. I don't recall seeing the throttle bodies closing, but I could have missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evo8john View Post
    Not sure on the gains. We were doing road tuning. The owner said "HOLY SH*T" after he drove it with the new tune, so it must have been somewhat better lol. We will set up a dyno appointment after this whole Covid-19 thing is over.

    I will check out the torque management and throttle rev limiter. I don't recall seeing the throttle bodies closing, but I could have missed it.
    His explicitve was my exact phrase to myself when mine hazed the tires through 1st and 2nd gear with the traction control on the first time I laid into it.