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Thread: 2013 Mustang Stage 3 Roush Supercharger Tune Way Off

  1. #1

    2013 Mustang Stage 3 Roush Supercharger Tune Way Off

    Working on a Stage 3 Roush Supercharger installation. ECM was replaced due to a crack in the case and water shorting is out. Just loaded the tune supplied from Roush and the thing looks like a Diesel. Scan it and see the A/F ratio at Idle is 9.52 one side and around 10 on the other side. Noticed the Baro Pressure reading is 99KPA when in actuality at our elevation it is 89.3KPA. Noticed the KOEO Map reading is 101KPA. All very suspect. I can't find a Baro Sensor or a MAP sensor. Finally after running for a while the idle A/F ratio is 14.7 but long term/short term fuel is pulling out 28%. Install has the Roush Fuel Pump controller so I can only assume its pumping too much fuel at idle but don't know how to adjust it. First Ford I've tuned other that the Diesels. Also of note is the tune has 14.07 listed as target A/F ratio. Any ideas where I might check. Have a trouble ticket with Roush but they haven't got back to me yet. Been a week.

    Thanks Rick

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner small tuner's Avatar
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    better to post tune + mods list so we can help

  3. #3
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    KOEO for my 2014 with TVS is: Baro= 0 kPA, MAP=101kPA. Running is Baro=kPA, MAP=30kPA. MAP is inferred on these cars.... I am not sure that's your problem.

    I'd think your Fueling or MAF calibration is significantly off in the tune for your mods.
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  4. #4
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    what are you using to write the tune?
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
    http://www.efidynotuning.com/

  5. #5
    Thanks for the replies guys.

    The tune is the stock Roush stage 3 tune that comes with the Roush Kit. It was written with the Roush Software. I'm looking at this thing because after the ECM was replaced they couldn't get it started. I found a bunch of suspect wiring at the ECM and I think it's been repaired now. Reason it wouldn't start was because of a bad clutch pedal switch. Once i got it fired the exhaust was black like a diesel rolling coal. I then dove into it further which brings me to this. Guys a friend so i want to get it right so he doesn't burn it up. I'm not familiar with the Ford Strategy as I mainly have tuned GM's. Cleaned the MAF as I thought it might be dirty. Made sure it seals in the Roush housing properly. Its all the stock 3 stage kit. Roush says the injectors are 47lb injectors but the tune appears to be with 85lb injectors (Flow rate low 0.0235070 lb/s, high 0.0169330 lb/s). I'll post a log tomorrow. Going to do a crank position relearn first. Read some threads and there was talk of that.

    Thanks for your help
    Rick

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarylsswapper View Post
    The tune is the stock Roush stage 3 tune that comes with the Roush Kit. Roush says the injectors are 47lb injectors but the tune appears to be with 85lb injectors (Flow rate low 0.0235070 lb/s, high 0.0169330 lb/s).
    Not knowing how Ford does things is going to lead you down 'suspect' paths all day. Your interpretation of the injector data is not correct and you are not looking at the wrong field if you think it's 85lb/hr injectors
    Ford rates that injector 47lb @ 39.15psi. In the stock roush tune, it's showing the injector data @ 65psi... which = 60.95lb/hr (or .0169330lb/s) . If the car has 47lb/hr injectors, than this is correct.

    Was this car purchased used, already modified with the kit? If so you need to verify that the injectors, cold air intake, etc. are 100% what comes with the Roush Kit or the tune they sent will not work. However if it's un-modified than that tune should work just fine.
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    Not knowing how Ford does things is going to lead you down 'suspect' paths all day. Your interpretation of the injector data is not correct and you are not looking at the wrong field if you think it's 85lb/hr injectors
    Ford rates that injector 47lb @ 39.15psi. In the stock roush tune, it's showing the injector data @ 65psi... which = 60.95lb/hr (or .0169330lb/s) . If the car has 47lb/hr injectors, than this is correct.

    Was this car purchased used, already modified with the kit? If so you need to verify that the injectors, cold air intake, etc. are 100% what comes with the Roush Kit or the tune they sent will not work. However if it's un-modified than that tune should work just fine.
    Thanks blackbolt22.

    The install was done by the shop who I am trying to fix this for. The stage 3 kit is as it came from Roush. Yes the tune should work but at idle I see the STFT/LTFT pulling out 28% fuel. When I first got it started the A/F ratio was 9.52 on one bank and close to 10.0 on the other and it looked like a diesel, now it is about 14.7 with the 28% being pulled out. Having the O2's making that kind of correction is unacceptable in my experience. Are you saying that is OK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarylsswapper View Post
    Thanks blackbolt22.

    The install was done by the shop who I am trying to fix this for. The stage 3 kit is as it came from Roush. Yes the tune should work but at idle I see the STFT/LTFT pulling out 28% fuel. When I first got it started the A/F ratio was 9.52 on one bank and close to 10.0 on the other and it looked like a diesel, now it is about 14.7 with the 28% being pulled out. Having the O2's making that kind of correction is unacceptable in my experience. Are you saying that is OK?
    I never said anything about the trims being ok, obviously something is off there. I said the data is correct for 47lb injectors (from what you told us) but you NEED to verify every component installed matches whats in the tune - to rule out the tune. Then you can look into the physical causes.

    My supercharger kit was installed and tuned by me alone. My fueling was off by 25-30% on my first engine startup.. but I expected this behavior because I was using a much bigger CAI Kit and didn't have the baseline data for it. After 1 flash it was much better and then I just fine tuned from there.

    If you post a tune and log we can help you further... Be sure to log the appropriate channels (and don't use the SAE ones if you can help it).
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  9. #9
    Thanks for your suggestions blackbolt22.

    Have been dealing with Roush on this for the last week. It appears everything is correct as per their Stage 3 Kit. Today found a 3/8" hole in the intake tube right before the Throttle body after the MAF. Should have had a plug in it, may have gotten blown out when it was backfiring. Logged it and the idle STLT trims are down to -20 now instead of -28. Roush says their tune won't work with headers so that is the problem. My experience with headers is it makes it leaner not richer but what do I know. Tune and Log posted. Tried changing the 02 sensor tip temperature because I read some where that the location of the O2 further down the pipe could be the problem. Didn't seem to make a difference. Also changed the min injector time to 1 as i read on this forum and couldn't even get it started, so back to what it was. This Ford is way different to tune than the GM's. Been reading a lot and even have the Ford Patent to try and figure out their tuning strategy. PHEW.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks Rick
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 03-18-2020 at 10:58 PM.

  10. #10
    I've decided that the MAF scaling is off, why I don"t know, but the Air Intake, Filter, MAF and Tune are all Roush stuff. So I've began logging the MAF and adjusted it to within 2%. It appears that the procedure is the same as the GM's.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarylsswapper View Post
    I've decided that the MAF scaling is off, why I don"t know, but the Air Intake, Filter, MAF and Tune are all Roush stuff. So I've began logging the MAF and adjusted it to within 2%. It appears that the procedure is the same as the GM's.
    That's what I figured bro. Check post #3 from me lol . Glad you got it trimmed out
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    That's what I figured bro. Check post #3 from me lol . Glad you got it trimmed out
    Thanks Blackbolt22 for your help. I'm just surprised that 1) The Roush tune is that far off or 2) Headers made that big of a difference at idle.

    Thanks Rick

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    That's what I figured bro. Check post #3 from me lol . Glad you got it trimmed out
    Blackbolt22 any idea on this. Idle trims look good, but after a few minutes of idling all of a sudden the ecm is adding 7 to 8 percent fuel. Ive turned off cold enrichment etc. The engine temp is about 180 before and after the change. MAF period is reduced and throttle opening increases by 0.2 percent. Standing outside the vehicle you can actually here the engine tone change. I'm thinking it is the evap solenoid opening and allowing unmeasured air into the supercharger leaning out the A/F Ration, hense needing to add fuel. Also stoich in the tune is 14.08 and yet the Ford Wideband shows about 14.7. I notice the front O2 sensors are Bosch so I think they have been replaced but the car only has 26,000 miles on it.

    Thanks Rick

  14. #14
    Well I've just figured out that due to the Headers, the Transport Delay is more than likely out. The distance from the rear cylinder in the factory manifold to the O2 sensor is 7". The Headers are 15".

    Found this thread: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ning+longtubes

    So back to square one.

    I'm still struggling with where the fueling comes from when in Open Loop Mode, like when it is first started.