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Thread: 2012 GT: BASIC long-tube header tune adjustments?

  1. #1

    2012 GT: BASIC long-tube header tune adjustments?

    Hi Everyone: long-time lurker, first time poster.

    I'm installing Hooker 1-3/4" long tube headers and full exhaust on a 2012 Mustang. 100% stock otherwise. I've dabbled around with the VCM editor looking at the sample copperhead tune to familiarize myself with the available scalars, functions, and tables. I learned enough to realize I'll need to enlist the help of an experienced tuner when getting deep into tuning this car

    That being said, here's my question:

    Since this car is 100% stock EXCEPT for the headers and exhaust, are there some "straight-forward, bare minimum" changes I can make to the factory tune to make sure the car runs, drives, and most importantly, keeps the MIL off and passes a state emissions OBDII check? (In TN, they only check the OBDII status, and I think we're allowed one readiness exemption on these cars.)

    My plan LATER is to install a Cobra Jet intake, throttle body, and intake system...and that's when I plan to pay an experienced tuner to sort all that out, not least of which because it messes with the MAF and drive-by-wire throttle.

    I realize I may be asking for "free advice," but I appreciate any insight y'all might have...even if it's "buzz off. Call a professional."

  2. #2
    You would think this should be easy.

    First thing to do would be to log the car and see where the A/F ratio is at. Also log MAF to see how that looks. The key is to log the right channels which always seems to be a problem for me. I"ll set up a log file and log parameters today and tomorrow those same channels show nothing. Search for a log file from someone with a 2012 GT and log the channels they did.

  3. #3
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    depending where the sensors are placed compared to stock you will have to adjust the delay tables
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SultanHassanMasTuning View Post
    depending where the sensors are placed compared to stock you will have to adjust the delay tables
    Well there we go WesDuenkel. Its just that easy, I wish.

    Thanks SultanHassanMasTuning. Which delay table would that be?

  5. #5
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    it is that easy

    look for an o2 sensor delay table, should be obvious

    you may want to increase the delay in to closed loop as well to make sure the 2s are warm enough to report correctly

    that is it, no other changes required.

    if fuel or maf is off then you have mechanical problems
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by decipha View Post
    it is that easy

    look for an o2 sensor delay table, should be obvious

    you may want to increase the delay in to closed loop as well to make sure the 2s are warm enough to report correctly

    that is it, no other changes required.

    if fuel or maf is off then you have mechanical problems

    I found this. It appears nothing in the 2011+ Mustang is obvious. Why it would be called "Transports Delay" is beyond me. Thank goodness for this Forum.

    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ning+longtubes

    Thanks for the help decipha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarylsswapper View Post
    I found this. It appears nothing in the 2011+ Mustang is obvious. Why it would be called "Transports Delay" is beyond me. Thank goodness for this Forum.

    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ning+longtubes

    Thanks for the help decipha.
    Guys think about the time it takes for the exhaust gas to exit the cylinder and 'transport' to the O2 sensor. This is increased for long tubes since the O2 bung is usually further away than stock.


    Hope this helps.
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  8. #8
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    to add to that

    you CANNOT use o2 extensions on any factory wideband ecu

    if you need longer wires due to the headers mounting the o2s farther back then you need to get o2s for an f150 which have longer leads.

    I specifically state that in my pre tune nfo write up as well.
    decipha @ EFIDynoTuning
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  9. #9
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decipha View Post
    to add to that

    you CANNOT use o2 extensions on any factory wideband ecu

    if you need longer wires due to the headers mounting the o2s farther back then you need to get o2s for an f150 which have longer leads.

    I specifically state that in my pre tune nfo write up as well.
    Not true - we have been extending the o2 leads for yonks. Nothing wrong with that. Just need to know how, avoid cheap extenders for starters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by veeefour View Post
    Not true - we have been extending the o2 leads for yonks. Nothing wrong with that. Just need to know how, avoid cheap extenders for starters.
    I believe the widebands (2011+ vehicles) are calibrated and even the wiring itself is part of that calibration. Extending the wires or even covering them with tape/shrink tubing (because the insulation allows air through too) can throw off the accuracy of them. It might work but is it as accurate?

    That said I don't see why extending the harness from the ECU wouldn't work as an alternative option to the F-150 widebands
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner veeefour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    I believe the widebands (2011+ vehicles) are calibrated and even the wiring itself is part of that calibration. Extending the wires or even covering them with tape/shrink tubing (because the insulation allows air through too) can throw off the accuracy of them. It might work but is it as accurate?

    That said I don't see why extending the harness from the ECU wouldn't work as an alternative option to the F-150 widebands
    They are, you are correct. Each WB contains a calibration resistor. Usually metal film resistor, usually located somewhere inside the connector.

    But...a good copper wire has a resistance of ~6R per 1000ft...ECU won't care if you extend it by a 1ft or 2...trust me I did that many many times.
    It's better to extend the wire harness than o2 sensor loom itself - but only because wires from sensor are very difficult to solder.

    So saying "YOU CAN'T" really makes you look stupid.
    Last edited by veeefour; 04-03-2020 at 02:01 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    Guys think about the time it takes for the exhaust gas to exit the cylinder and 'transport' to the O2 sensor. This is increased for long tubes since the O2 bung is usually further away than stock.


    Hope this helps.
    While that would make sense, the reality in this installation is that if i extend the time to the O2 sensors the STFTs swing wildly, almost to the point where the motor quits. At idle adding a little bit to the time seemed to stabalize it but at 2000 rpm it made it way worse.

    Thanks blackbolt22.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarylsswapper View Post
    While that would make sense, the reality in this installation is that if i extend the time to the O2 sensors the STFTs swing wildly, almost to the point where the motor quits. At idle adding a little bit to the time seemed to stabalize it but at 2000 rpm it made it way worse.

    Thanks blackbolt22.
    Well, just how much did you add? lol
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    Well, just how much did you add? lol
    I added 25% at idle and 15% up high and smoothed from low to high. The O2 Transports Delay Total is almost double of what I have in the Table, 0.742s compared to 0.453 in the Table. I logged EQ error vs Load and O2 Delay and used that percentage to increase the Table. That didn't work.

    Transport Delay 1.jpg

    Log of it. Roush Tune My Delay1.hpl

    Back to the drawing board.

    Its liked these setting to start with.
    Liked this Sort of.jpg

    Log of this. Roush Tune My Delay3.hpl


    Then something happened and it really didn't like the same tune.
    Log of this. Roush Tune My Delay3Now doesn't like it.hpl
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 04-04-2020 at 10:30 PM.

  15. #15
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    You have codes that need to be addressed first and foremost. They are saying you need a crankshaft relearn and your front O2 sensors are stuck rich. Just installing headers should not cause this. Review your install/ sensors/ connections thoroughly.

    Headers can just be installed with zero changes to a calibration(not optimal, but no issues from it), and the most you'll get is catalytic efficiency codes after some driving. Making them set readiness monitors and pass emissions is a different story.
    Last edited by murfie; 04-04-2020 at 10:46 PM.

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    Yeah murf. that's what I was thinking, what the heck!

    calgaryswapper you definitely have some issues to resolve. Also you can disable P0605 in the tune without consequence as this is just from performing a write cal with modified tune. Ideally you want all the other codes to be resolved (not disabled) so if anything goes wrong you will be notified with the indicator on the dash.
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
    __________________________________________________ ________

    2014 Mustang GT Premium. VMP Gen2R Supercharged with an FTI 3000rpm Converter. JLT, BMR, Steeda, Viking, etc.
    Don't fix it if it ain't broken | Maximum effort gets maximum results

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    You have codes that need to be addressed first and foremost. They are saying you need a crankshaft relearn and your front O2 sensors are stuck rich. Just installing headers should not cause this. Review your install/ sensors/ connections thoroughly.

    Headers can just be installed with zero changes to a calibration(not optimal, but no issues from it), and the most you'll get is catalytic efficiency codes after some driving. Making them set readiness monitors and pass emissions is a different story.
    Thanks Murfie.

    I've done the crank relearn procedure 4 times in HP Tuners and 3 times it tells me it was successful, but as you can see crank relearn is still there. I thought it might have to go thru a drive cycle first to eliminate that error code. Saw that on a Coyote Forum. Do I have to do a KAM rest first? Still have snow on the ground yet in Canada so haven't been able to drive it.

    The O2 sensors stuck rich has been there ever since i got the car. They aren't stuck rich as they read the O2 content @?4.7 so i don't know what that is about. It says its a permanent error just like the crank relearn. When i first got this thing fired is looked like a diesel with A/F ratios <10.0. Now they are 14.7.


    So I'm unsure what to do about that error. Don't want to spend $300 on O2 sensors if that's not the problem. Cars got 30,000 miles on it and the O2 sensors look pretty good. Not disagreeing that they can't be a problem, its just that I've examined them, so I'm not sure what to think now.

    How can it say they are stuck rich when they are actually reading 14.7?
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 04-05-2020 at 06:14 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    Yeah murf. that's what I was thinking, what the heck!

    calgaryswapper you definitely have some issues to resolve. Also you can disable P0605 in the tune without consequence as this is just from performing a write cal with modified tune. Ideally you want all the other codes to be resolved (not disabled) so if anything goes wrong you will be notified with the indicator on the dash.
    Thanks blackbolt22, P0605 is disabled in the tune. I explained to murfie about the 3 error codes.

  19. #19
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    People have had to use another tool to get the crank relearn to take, you could open a ticket with support and let them know its not working or do that.

    your bank 1 O2 sensor seems fine, its your bank 2 that seems to be a problem. Swap them and see if the problem follows the sensor or stays with the harness.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    People have had to use another tool to get the crank relearn to take, you could open a ticket with support and let them know its not working or do that.

    your bank 1 O2 sensor seems fine, its your bank 2 that seems to be a problem. Swap them and see if the problem follows the sensor or stays with the harness.
    Thanks Murfie. I will create a trouble ticket with support.

    I'm wondering what you see in B2S1 in that it is not working properly. In the logs I posted I see both of them swinging above and below Lambda1. What am i missing?
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 04-05-2020 at 11:17 PM.