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Thread: 2012 GT: BASIC long-tube header tune adjustments?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    People have had to use another tool to get the crank relearn to take, you could open a ticket with support and let them know its not working or do that.

    your bank 1 O2 sensor seems fine, its your bank 2 that seems to be a problem. Swap them and see if the problem follows the sensor or stays with the harness.
    Thanks Murfie. I will contact support.

    What are you seeing in the Bank 2 sensor? I'm seeing both of them swing above and below Lambda 1. What am I missing?

  2. #22
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    your last log really shows it, but you see the difference in delay 1 and delay 3 logs.

    b1Vb2.PNG

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    your last log really shows it, but you see the difference in delay 1 and delay 3 logs.

    b1Vb2.PNG
    Yep I see that in your picture.

    How did you blow that up so that you can see that big difference?

    Thanks Murfie

  4. #24
    How are you guys logging transport delay? I tried setting up a table in my scanner but it only logs on 1 row of the table? It will only have data for the 0.1 load row. Any insight to what I'm doing wrong?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cozmo2806 View Post
    How are you guys logging transport delay? I tried setting up a table in my scanner but it only logs on 1 row of the table? It will only have data for the 0.1 load row. Any insight to what I'm doing wrong?
    Cozmo2806
    Download my Log file and you should see the graph setup. Not saying its right but its the way i did it.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarylsswapper View Post
    Yep I see that in your picture.

    How did you blow that up so that you can see that big difference?

    Thanks Murfie
    You can modify your layout how ever you want it to be. Drag the windows around, resize them. Right click on them and setup graphs and chart layouts. I'm constantly changing mine, to look at different logs and the data in them, in different ways.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    You can modify your layout how ever you want it to be. Drag the windows around, resize them. Right click on them and setup graphs and chart layouts. I'm constantly changing mine, to look at different logs and the data in them, in different ways.
    Thanks murfie. Got that now.

    I put a new NGK sensor in Bank2 and it didn't make a difference. Took the factory sensor from Bank2 and put it in Bank1 and the log for Bank1 stayed the same. Is it possible that the O2 sensor in Bank2 is in the wrong location when compared to Bank1? By that I mean O2 sensor in Bank1 is 15" from cylinder 4 whereas the location from cylinder 8 to Bank2 sensor is ? Also the Transport Delay for Cylinder 1 and Cylinder 4 on Bank1 should be different because they are different lengths from the O2 sensor. Yes with headers they should be close but i doubt these one are.

    Log posted as to where I'm at.
    Stk Roush Tune new Bank 2 Sensor B ank 2 Sensor in Bank 1 After Transports Delay refine 1.hpl

    The other thing I noticed is that the commanded time more and less than Lambda1 is different for Bank1 and Bank2. Is that normal?
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 04-10-2020 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #28
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    I've only seen that strange behaviour in one of your logs.

    The physical distance from the exhaust ports to the oxygen sensor has far less to do with transport delay than engine speed does. The exhaust ports are not constantly filling the pipe with gases. Instead it comes out in pulses. two cylinders on one side are commanded slightly rich, and the other two, slightly lean. the ECU then uses the firing order to look for this pattern to determine the delay. At low speeds and airflow the delay is greater than at high speeds and high airflow. Moving the O2 sensor a foot or two does not make much of a difference because the rate at which gases are flowing through the exhaust is fast. Headers reduce the back pressure created, usually allowing the gases to flow faster. This is why I think the transport delay may actually decrease, rather than the popular belief of increasing it as much as 50-100%. The ECU adjust from the values you have in the table and learns the delay, so it doesnt really do anything but make this adjustment take longer.

    Its normal for commanded lambda to be slightly different from one bank to another. You should see them swinging back and forth at lambda 1. So if one is .98 and the other is 1.02, thats normal. Besides that one log this is what I see in your logs. Where im seeing codes is in the details tab(bottom of the channel list), and they say current.

    What the codes you have with the oxygen sensor stuck rich mean is that when the ECU commands less fuel, it doesn't ever see the oxygen sensor get leaner. It can be caused by many thing other than the O2 sensor being bad. It could be caused because the crank relearn has not been completed, and the ECU is simply not looking in the right place because it doesnt know where the crank position really is. Fuel pressure control or leaky/bad injectors could do it also.



    Transport delay and engine speed.PNG
    Last edited by murfie; 04-11-2020 at 02:39 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I've only seen that strange behaviour in one of your logs.

    The physical distance from the exhaust ports to the oxygen sensor has far less to do with transport delay than engine speed does. The exhaust ports are not constantly filling the pipe with gases. Instead it comes out in pulses. two cylinders on one side are commanded slightly rich, and the other two, slightly lean. the ECU then uses the firing order to look for this pattern to determine the delay. At low speeds and airflow the delay is greater than at high speeds and high airflow. Moving the O2 sensor a foot or two does not make much of a difference because the rate at which gases are flowing through the exhaust is fast. Headers reduce the back pressure created, usually allowing the gases to flow faster. This is why I think the transport delay may actually decrease, rather than the popular belief of increasing it as much as 50-100%. The ECU adjust from the values you have in the table and learns the delay, so it doesnt really do anything but make this adjustment take longer.

    Its normal for commanded lambda to be slightly different from one bank to another. You should see them swinging back and forth at lambda 1. So if one is .98 and the other is 1.02, thats normal. Besides that one log this is what I see in your logs. Where im seeing codes is in the details tab(bottom of the channel list), and they say current.

    What the codes you have with the oxygen sensor stuck rich mean is that when the ECU commands less fuel, it doesn't ever see the oxygen sensor get leaner. It can be caused by many thing other than the O2 sensor being bad. It could be caused because the crank relearn has not been completed, and the ECU is simply not looking in the right place because it doesnt know where the crank position really is. Fuel pressure control or leaky/bad injectors could do it also.



    Transport delay and engine speed.PNG
    Thanks Murfie

    I did a crank relearn with another scanner. It all worked fine. Or so I thought.

    After Crank relearn with Pauls Scanner.hpl
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 04-19-2020 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #30
    Murfie:

    Then I logged it again. And those errors are back.

    After Crank relearn with Pauls Scanner no changhes from previous scan.hpl

  11. #31
    This is the reply I got from Eric. Thursday I'll take it for a drive and some road tuning.

    "What is a Permanent DTC?
    Starting in 2009/2010 MY, vehicles now store emission related DTCs as Permanent DTCs. Unlike non-Permanent DTCs, Permanent DTCs can not be cleared by any conventional method like a battery disconnect or via any scan tool. Permanent DTCs will only clear automatically after the module storing the DTC, sees that the problem causing the code has been solved.
    Please Note: It may take a few drive cycles for the DTC to clear if the issue causing the DTC is fixed. If the issue causing the DTC is never fixed, the Permanent DTC will never clear.
    What does this mean for VCM Scanner?
    With the release of VCM Suite 3.0 earlier this year, we have strived to make VCM Scanner the most comprehensive scan tool available and to report as much information as possible to you. This includes reporting Permanent DTCs. All versions of VCM Suite 3.0 or newer will report Permanent DTCs, but like stated above, they can not be cleared by any scan tool, including VCM Scanner. If you see Permanent DTCs being reported in VCM Scanner, it is not a bug, the module storing the DTC just hasn't cleared it yet.


    Sincerely,
    Eric Krupp
    HP Tuners LLC"


    Thanks for your help Murfie.
    Last edited by calgarylsswapper; 04-21-2020 at 10:02 PM.

  12. #32
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    OK, I don't know what you asked him, but his response doesn't seem to fit the issue you are having. Seems like a canned response to cover HPT from any legal issues with emissions testing being disabled.

    P2198 (Current)
    &
    P2196 (Current)
    These are pre catalytic converter O2 sensor codes. Not post catalytic O2 sensor emissions related codes.
    You should be looking at the upstream sensors and harness connections, the downstream ones are not what you see in the logs. There is a physical issue with your car that you need to find and correct.

  13. #33
    You can sort of clear permanent dts, but not the crank relearn code. A reflash has always cleared my stored permanent codes. The crank relearn will go away on its own after some time. This has been my experience.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    OK, I don't know what you asked him, but his response doesn't seem to fit the issue you are having. Seems like a canned response to cover HPT from any legal issues with emissions testing being disabled.

    P2198 (Current)
    &
    P2196 (Current)
    These are pre catalytic converter O2 sensor codes. Not post catalytic O2 sensor emissions related codes.
    You should be looking at the upstream sensors and harness connections, the downstream ones are not what you see in the logs. There is a physical issue with your car that you need to find and correct.
    Sorry Murfie i should have been more specific.
    I created a trouble ticket with support because I couldn't get the crank relearn to work in HP Tuners. I used a 3rd party scanner and got the crank relearn completed, check engine light was off and on the HP Tuners first log all the codes were gone. Then I did a second log and the codes were back, but only in HP Scanners but not in my 3rd party scanner and no check engine light was on. What I posted was HP Tuners reply. So basically i have to complete a drive cycle. Was attempting to do that today when I found a terrible driveshaft vibration. Steady bearing gone. And they just had the driveshaft repaired with less than 60 miles on it. This car is becoming my nightmare.

    Rick

  15. #35
    Thanks for all the great info. Sorry that I missed this thread, as I didn't have email notifications turned on

  16. #36
    Update: Installing the headers with NO tune only tripped a rear O2 heater code. I'll fix that later, but car runs fine and picked up 25 HP and 25 TQ, no other changes. Stock down to the paper air filter.

  17. #37
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    Wwsduenkel do you have a cold air kit also? You dynoed the car?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by shelbe67 View Post
    Wwsduenkel do you have a cold air kit also? You dynoed the car?
    No cold air intake. Car is 100% stock with the addition of headers and exhaust. No tune. Yes, dynoed on Mustang dyno.