Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Starting a new MSE tune, bad cold start and Lope now?

  1. #1
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16

    Starting a new MSE tune, bad cold start and Lope now?

    So Im starting a new tune from a stock file. Heres my change log so far:
    Stock Tune
    - Desired rail pressure Raised to a peak 184mpa peak, copied across all density tables
    - Desired Fuel pressure Transient Raised to 180mpa peak, increased in part throttle acceleration and heavy throttle; reduced at cruise rpm.
    - Raised Desired Governor pressure: Part and Full, Mid range rpm only
    - Speedo recalibrated for 445/50/20
    - Speed limiter raised to 150mph
    - Brake Torque Management changed to Disabled
    - High Idle feature Enabled
    - Base Fueling - Fuel qty Pedal Map: Rescaled, Raised to 189mm3 peak, +20% mid throttle, +10% low throttle
    - Full Throttle fueling: +40% Hi; +30% MedHi; +20% MedLo; +10% Lo
    - Full Throttle fueling Transient; +30%
    - Pilot fuel qty set to 0.00
    - Post fuel qty removed >1800rpm at cruise fuel demand and at high RPM/Fuel demand; extended Post to 75mm3 row and 1800rpm column
    - All speed Gov. No Throttle Fuel: Reduced to 30mm3 max @4500
    - All speed Gov. Main Droop: increased to peak +40% @ 4500, smoothed to +10% @ 1125
    - Part Throttle Governor: All raised to 200mm3 globally
    - Computed Air Density Fuel Qty Limited: Unified globally top to bottom
    - Main Injection PW: +10% at 60mm3/100mMPa; +20% at 100mm3/140MPa
    - Main Pulse Limiter: change to Disabled
    - Main Pulse Limiter Type: change to Minimum
    - Wastegate DC: Min DC set to 50%
    - Main Inj timing: set to peak 26*adv, idle and low cruise stock,
    - Torque limit: raised 50%
    - Boost Limit A: raised 50%
    - Baro Limit A/B/C: raised 50%
    -Max Output Limit: Raised 50%
    -HIgh Speed Gov: Changed to 5000rpm for Set/A/B/C
    -Gov PID: Reset RPM change to 5000rpm; Min RPM change to 4500; Max RPM set to 5000
    -Gov Proportional: Positive Lim set to 200mm3
    I changed a few governor settings trying to make it more responsive which its ALOT more alive on throttle tip in. But it took a LONG time to crank up. When it started, it was missing, loping, popping and really mad. I turned on high idle and it was like glass at 1100rpm. It was perfectly normal until it dropped below 900rpm. But, once it was warm, the idle and startup was back to normal. Did i Mess up something in one of the Limiters or Governor settings?

    SE test w governor chg +10% Inj PW and 25deg Gov chgs.hptHard starting bad lope.hpl

  2. #2
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Posts
    4
    Did you have a previous version of this tune that works correctly or did you just make all of these changes?

    I just glanced briefly but you only changed your transient timing table all other timing tables are stock.

    -On you transient timing table that you did change you have a default value of 0.039 at 0mm3 across all rpm ranges. Probably from a timing calculator.
    -You removed all pilot injection which aids in startup. You can have the pilot help startup then switch off.
    -Set your rail maps stock in the idle range.

    Your log shows 1650ish PW with 21.5* of timing at 3200 RPM...

  3. #3
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    i have a tune without the timing, PW, or governors/limiter changes. its stock timing, multi event. it ran horribly slow and sounded very labored on it.

    Thanks for noting the Steady state timing changes. I will go back and unify them. i must have gotten distracted by some other table.
    I did use a timing calculator but i knew what timing i wanted and where i wanted it to go so i kind of fudged the tables and did some extra interpolation to blend the new areas with some stock areas.
    -I did turn off all Pilot because i wanted the truck to be able to cool down quicker when i park it. Which table can i set pilot injection turn off at operating temps?
    -I have 90hp injectors, should i actually trim down the PW in the idle range, below stock?

    And my Injector PW table calls for 1930us at 3200rpm (which was 100mm3 x 150mpa). Im guessing i still have something limiting or trimming the PW?

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    Quote Originally Posted by Everytime5.9 View Post
    Did you have a previous version of this tune that works correctly or did you just make all of these changes?

    I just glanced briefly but you only changed your transient timing table all other timing tables are stock.

    -On you transient timing table that you did change you have a default value of 0.039 at 0mm3 across all rpm ranges. Probably from a timing calculator.
    -You removed all pilot injection which aids in startup. You can have the pilot help startup then switch off.
    -Set your rail maps stock in the idle range.

    Your log shows 1650ish PW with 21.5* of timing at 3200 RPM...
    The point of a single injection event is to remove pilot, post as well. Main injection timing will need to be increased for this and when done right can have no startup issues. Rail pressure needs to be increased for a single injection event tune as well.

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    Quote Originally Posted by flubyux2 View Post
    i have a tune without the timing, PW, or governors/limiter changes. its stock timing, multi event. it ran horribly slow and sounded very labored on it.

    Thanks for noting the Steady state timing changes. I will go back and unify them. i must have gotten distracted by some other table.
    I did use a timing calculator but i knew what timing i wanted and where i wanted it to go so i kind of fudged the tables and did some extra interpolation to blend the new areas with some stock areas.
    -I did turn off all Pilot because i wanted the truck to be able to cool down quicker when i park it. Which table can i set pilot injection turn off at operating temps?
    -I have 90hp injectors, should i actually trim down the PW in the idle range, below stock?

    And my Injector PW table calls for 1930us at 3200rpm (which was 100mm3 x 150mpa). Im guessing i still have something limiting or trimming the PW?
    90hp injectors, for the idle region it would take very little change in pulsewidth to get it in line, I probably wouldn?t even worry about it.

    Pulsewidth table doesn?t operate off rpm, just rail pressure and commanded total fuel quantity.

  6. #6
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    thanks Jim. my last single event had pilot only until 1400rpm. it did start easily. but it had a hard miss below 1400 and i thought i might try to eliminate the pilot and post everywhere to see if its happier on a SE. With this tune, its happy once its warmed up a bit. however, when its cold its really angry and white smoking.

    I was considering reducing the low rpm PW and increase the RP to improve the atomization and possibly attempt to have SOIgnition happen faster even if SOInj timing is ATDC. Eithery way, Should i move the Main SOI below 1000rpm now that its SE? or just put back pilot at 1000rpm and below?

    Idk if you have looked at the cold idle region of my log yet, but the Commanded fuel qty was jumping up to 50-60mm3 region when it would lope. it normally only takes 23mm3 to idle.
    thoughts, comments, concerns?
    Last edited by flubyux2; 3 Days Ago at 09:12 PM.

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    I set main timing no less than 8*BTDC, raise rail pressure although it?s escaping me at the moment where I raise it to. I also edit idle fuel quantity table which you don?t have access to. I?ll dig up a pure VP tune I did for a guy that for sure has had no issues cold starting down around 28*F.

  8. #8
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    I added Pilot back into <650rpm area just for startup help and put the timing back to stock in the matching SOI maps. Ill give that a test to see if cranking is any better. I still cant figure out why its commanding 60mm3 of fuel before/during cranking though. I would like to give that VP tune a try at least in the cranking regions. I wonder if i could trim off some fuel during cranking with an ECT modifier table?

    also, I tried to make the pedal more responsive. i think i read a post where you stated the All Speed gov>No throttle fuel table helps this? (i thought it was closed throttle fueling and was keeping my motor from dropping RPM's when i release the pedal: sometimes the truck keeps momentum if im accelerating and quickly jump on the brake. i can feel the motor pushing through the brakes for a moment). So i added 30% to this table to liven up responsiveness. On a related note, is there an Accelerator pump vs ECT table where i can reduce the initial fuel dose when the engine is cold and have it taper back in as it warms up?

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    What?s your model year?

    Cranking mode has its own set of tables and single value parameters, HPT only has one table mapped out I think.

    These engines don?t have accelerator pumps, that?s a carbureted gas engine. There?s lots of different ways to boost throttle sensitivity as well.

    With rpm hang a lot of it can have to do with what you do with your rail pressure and it?s PID control. On the note of rail pressure, from BBI, they recommend whatever you do with your rail pressure to make sure your DeltaP from full throttle to zero throttle to not exceed what it is at stock rail pressure tables as they greater the DeltaP the greater the risk of cracking injectors.

  10. #10
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    its a 2006.

    and I do only see one table for Cranking. and the Cell it would be referencing during my conditions is set to 25mm3. I dont know what other adders or multipliers are applied to the cranking table during Cranking though.

    I know carburated engines have accelerator pumps. but the other tuning software platforms i use simulate the Accel pump feature to aid in engine reponse for DeltaTPS, and then modifers for ECT and IAT to alter the DeltaTPS fuel adder. Plus theres also overal Limiters for the Accel pump function. I just dont know what this Fuel dosage table would be called in HPT that aids in DeltaTPS tuning: was that the All speed Gov>No throttle Fuel table?

    Cracking injectors might concern me a little especialy since my relief valve is capped off. But my last log does show the FRP Actual not following the FRP Desired line. Would this have anything to do with my FCA DC Actual vs. Desired rarely coinciding with eachother?

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    There isn?t any multiplier tables used during cranking and most of the multiplier tables you see in HPT isn?t used unless certain conditions are met.

    I haven?t seen in any model year on these trucks having any parameter referenced as accelerator pump simulation or anything similar to that.

    Running a higher relief pressure valve is much better option than a rail cap if wanting to run higher pressure. I don?t know what your tune looks like to say what could be causing actual pressure to not follow desired. It?s PID controlled and it?s a pump so it?s always fluctuating but should be within 300-500psi+- of desired in a health and well tuned setup.

  12. #12
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    ok, so then i guess that limits my range of options as far as any adjustments for cranking.

    what were the tables that could be used to sharpen throttle response? I want to make sure im not double or triple adjusting and stacking fueling doses.

    Im not sure that the ecm uses a closed loop feedback system on the FCA since its just a two wire pwm solenoid. im not really sure how it determins what the fca actual is, but thats the main reason why i brought up my FRP actual vs desired being off because FCA DC actual vs Desired is sometimes way off. there are times where its commanding 47% and actual is 4%. but the FRP Desired is relatively close to FRP actual (greater than a 300-500psi variance but maybe 1000psi). But on the bright side, its not draining the rail. at 3000rpm x 85%tps x 115mm3 = 160mpa actual. so theres fuel left to burn! and FRP desired was also 160mpa.

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    There is a wide variety of options for throttle response, boost/fuel, timing, no throttle fuel, they all have their different play on the system kinda need to be worked in unison of each other to achieve the results you are looking for. The ECM monitors FCA current in the circuitry of the ECM board, it?s PID controlled. A system, depending on design doesn?t necessarily need more than 2 wires to function. Look at the engine coolant sensor on a 12 valve, 1 wire. Rail pressure desired is determined by engine rpm and total fuel quantity, throttle position uses the accelerator to fuel table to determine a base total fuel quantity amount then further modifies it through a lot of algorithms to provide the total fuel quantity needed to turn ?x? rpms. Simply, if you put your foot to the floor and rail pressure actual drops off way below desired, look at your FCA current, is dropping way down low towards zero? If yes, you are commanding too much fuel and draining your rail, if no, you got some other underlying issue going on.

  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    You still have plenty of options for cranking, if I?m not mistaken HPT has crank timing and some crank fueling table, can?t remember which one it is.

  15. #15
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    Here's a spreadsheet of a few tables from a 2006 5.9 with 50HP injectors and a potato-built turbo. It's not super refined but runs and starts very well including cold starts and cold temperatures. It's even been used to haul a 30' 5th wheel RV and got around 16-17mpg towing it, tows quite well. Unloaded he gets around 21-22mpg.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  16. #16
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    Yeah i know that monitoring systems dont need more than one wire. and control systems dont always need more than two wires. but for a closed loop feed back of a control system, youd want an extra signal coming back that tells the ecm it's commands are resulting in the desired effects or positioning. Its like an IACV or EGR valve. some cars have a closed loop system and some dont. the ones that dont arent able to diagnose when the ECM's commands arent resulting in the desired conditions. I can see where a separate controller and sensor can be combined to yeild a system that will have extrapolalted positioning based on "known" values where X command "Should" yeild Y results, and the ECM compares the sensor reading to a lookup table to "know" (actually, assume) that the PWM/solenoid controller is or isnt doing what its told. I guess that the ECM is just assuming what the FCA DC actually is based on the RP sensor feedback vs RPM vs TPS vs etc.

    You are correct. I have found 4 tables relating to Cranking: Desired FP, Fuel Qty, Main SOI and Pilot timing for cranking. I wonder if there are other Adders that contribute to the Cranking Fuel Qty table seing as how im Logging more mm3 than what the Cranking table commands. I just looked at some logs a year ago, they also showed at least 50mm3 during cranking. maybe my only issue is trying to start on SE which i never have before. Im going to check out that VP-style tune

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    There isn?t any adders for crank mode. There?s some fueling tables, timing tables,, crank speed table and a bunch of single value parameters for determining when transitions occur, etc.

    The FCA duty cycle is a function of FCA current if I remember correctly, ecm monitors the current inside the ecm much like how it monitors and controls injector voltage and current inside the ecm.

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    I?d have to look at the parameter list, I but I?m pretty sure the FCA has an open and closed loop control
    Last edited by Jim P; 2 Days Ago at 06:46 PM.

  19. #19
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    16
    Alright.
    I loaded the vp numbers Into a copy of a stock tune. I’ll give that a go next with what’s in there before I mess with any governors or anything else.

    The addition of pilot back down low helped it start right up. It still has a bad misfire and a little lope. Touching the throttle makes it buck real hard. I think I have a few bad injectors or something. It’s always had a little bit of a stumble off idle up to 1200-1400 and seemed to go away once it warmed up. My last tune had pilot added up to 1400rpm. This new tune has just main. I wonder if the pilot event was hiding the issue and this single event tune is make it much more apparent.

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner Jim P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    876
    May have underlying issues going on somewhere in your fuel system