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Thread: 2.0TFSI Engine build + HPtuners?

  1. #81
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    More PCV discussions

    So I was thinking that my issues with the catch can filling rapidly with oil could have a couple of different causes

    - not enough baffling making the valvetrain oil simply splash into the breather hose.
    - not enough oil separation from removing the fine oil mist separator in the factory PCV setup.
    - increased blow by from removing the manifold vacuum thus increasing crank case pressure which in turn could make the piston rings not seal as good.
    - or the fact that the blow by flow is now routed through the valvetrain and that it might pick up oil droplets and carry them into the catch can.

    This is how the underside of my adapter plate looked before I modified it:
    Unmodified adapter plate.jpg

    At fist I made an attempt to just limit the possibility of the oil splashing into the vent hole:
    Modified PCV v1.PNG
    Yes, I know the precision of the drilling is a bit more organic then what one could ask for
    The intention was to let the blow by gases into the adapter plate in a much more baffled area. If you look at the valve cover it is already baffled in the area of the multiple small holes. I hoped that this would help to reduced oil splashing into the vent hole, but it did virtually no difference. I still had a 1/4 of my catch can full after going to work and back.

    OK, back to the drawing board. I sat down and looked at the self study program again and this is what I came up with:
    Modified PCV v2 5.PNGModified PCV v2 6.jpgModified PCV v2 7.PNGModified PCV v2 8.PNGModified PCV v2 9.jpg

    The idea was to contain the blow-by gases withing the adapter plate and not the let it out into the valve train where it will introduce unnecessary water and fuel from the blow-by and limit the blow-by from picking up any oil droplets on the way. The area where the blow-by comes up from the block was partially capped of by my adapter plate, don't know what they were thinking by doing that, so that had to be ported out (top left corner of the first image). Top right corner I made room for a screw. And then to incorporate some kind of oil separation I am directing the flow into the volume where the fine oil mist separator used to be and the flow needs to do a 180 degree turn in order to flow back up again hopefully separating out some oil droplets. The blow-by then flows into the main chamber again and under the outlet passage and into the vent hole to the catch can. The passage under the outlet pipe is a bit narrow and there were a risk of oil collecting in the cut out there so I drilled a drain hole in the cover plate (should have made it smaller though).

    After going to work and back today there were maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of the amount of oil I have had with the first version. It is still a bit much but it is substantially better than before.
    To adjust it just a bit further I will probably try to seal off the transition from the blow-by passage in the cylinder head/valve cover into the adapter plate with an uncut OEM gasket and make the drain hole a bit smaller.
    I don't believe that I have increased the crank case pressure that much further by doing it this way since the smallest passage right now is larger than in the factory PCV and about the same size as the outlet of the original adapter plate but I can be wrong, haven't measured.

    I have an update / some questions on the tuning side as well but that will have to wait for now.

    Cheers,
    Alex

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mukhery View Post
    The mounts are from 034 (link). The vibration after deleting the balance shafts is pretty noticeable, but it's great at the track! Do you notice much vibration in your car?
    Actually I can't say I notice any increased vibrations from removing the balance shafts. I can maybe hear some small vibrations on deceleration from 3k down to 2k rpm. But I guess my sloppy factory engine mounts covers that quite well or maybe the longitudinal installation could have something to do with it
    At what rpms is it most noticeable? I am considering upgrading my engine mounts as well but first I am doing the suspension and then hopefully the turbo and intercooler, noticed my intake temps going to 50C during a pull through a couple of gears, which seems hot to me.

    Cheers,
    Alex

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mukhery View Post
    I attached a clarifying image for you. Orange is the inlet, purple is the outlet, yellow is the oil drain which connects to a port I made on the secondary oil separator (link).
    Attachment 100542
    Quote Originally Posted by mukhery View Post
    I attached a clarifying image for you. Orange is the inlet, purple is the outlet, yellow is the oil drain which connects to a port I made on the secondary oil separator (link).
    Wow!!! That's a hell of a set-up! Do you get extra scavenging by it being ported into the oil separator or is that to make up for the loss of the action I presume was provided by the balance shafts (my limited explorations while in there). Or is it just an easy way to get the oil back above the pan?

    Thanks for the clarifications!!

    I looked through the Earls catalog and do not see those one ways you used. Can you link on those?

    Thanks!

    KS

  4. #84
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    Alex,

    Do I see the path you are using in the final iteration correctly? Looks good and I can see the reasoning!!

    You lock those fasteners down good?

    Cheers!

    KS
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botbasher View Post
    Alex,

    Do I see the path you are using in the final iteration correctly? Looks good and I can see the reasoning!!

    You lock those fasteners down good?

    Cheers!

    KS
    Just flip the arrows and you are completely correct. From crank case to catch can:
    Modified PCV v2 9 explained.jpg

    Yeah I did put a fair amount of loctite on the screws, not really keen on anyone of them coming loose

    Cheers,
    Alex

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexOlen View Post
    I can maybe hear some small vibrations on deceleration from 3k down to 2k rpm. At what rpms is it most noticeable?
    Nice to know it could be smoother haha. That's pretty much exactly where I get the most noticeable vibration. Could be noticeable at higher rpm under load, but usually the vibration just gets much higher frequency so it's less noticeable. I certainly wouldn't recommend stiff mounts if you daily the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Botbasher View Post
    That's a hell of a set-up! Do you get extra scavenging by it being ported into the oil separator or is that to make up for the loss of the action I presume was provided by the balance shafts (my limited explorations while in there). Or is it just an easy way to get the oil back above the pan? I looked through the Earls catalog and do not see those one ways you used. Can you link on those?
    Thanks! I don't think the balance shafts do any scavenging, but who knows, the shape of the shafts and the housing are kinda oil-pump-esque so you might be right. I mainly wanted an easy way back to the pan, but I also needed something that was above the oil level because I have it configured to pull ~8inHg vacuum and I didn't want to risk sucking oil up from the pan. The check valves are actually from Vibrant (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G0LV9GM), seemed like one of the few options that could open with low pressure but resist large amounts of pressure in the opposite direction (i.e., boost).

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexOlen View Post
    Just flip the arrows and you are completely correct. From crank case to catch can:
    Very nicely done! I completely agree with you about the designs of these things. They should've created a plate that uses the OEM cyclone separator and oil return. My opinion is that all these companies didn't really think through or understand how the OEM system works, they just quickly designed shoddy products they could sell.

  7. #87
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    Just checked out the logs again and they look really really good you might have a small boost leak but if you pressure test it you'll find it for sure and no biggie if not, just 5-7% fuel taken out of it most times on WOT, seems like you could stand to richen it up a little or take a tiny bit of timing out of it, other than that i guess more boost is a given

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerJDubbs View Post
    Just checked out the logs again and they look really really good you might have a small boost leak but if you pressure test it you'll find it for sure and no biggie if not, just 5-7% fuel taken out of it most times on WOT, seems like you could stand to richen it up a little or take a tiny bit of timing out of it, other than that i guess more boost is a given
    Thanks for looking at the logs again Tyler. I have done one more log since I noticed that the driver demanded torque in sport mode was not updated from stock only in normal mode. I am doing most of my full pull logging in sport mode. If I remember correctly this log is also post PCV rebuild so if there were any boost leak through the PCV that should have been fixed.
    I did also try just to reduce the maximum TIP-in hold ECM 14118 by one second but I am having a hard time noticing if this has any effect of the reduced TIP-in hold.
    I do see a bit more boost in the latest log during one of the pulls but I am not skilled enough to notice any other major differences. I think it was a much hotter day on the last log.
    I did see some major spark retard during a short pull at 6min 53s into the log so taking some timing out might not be bad. It does seem quite retarded already and the intake temps are low at this point so I don't really understand why it would be knocking. Another thing I can't really say I understand is why it's commanding 100% throttle at 40% pedal.

    Will be doing my suspension and some fitment the coming week but the I might pull the trigger on a EFR-6758 to mitigate the lack of boost

    Log and tune attached.

    Attached Files Attached Files

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexOlen View Post
    Thanks for looking at the logs again Tyler. I have done one more log since I noticed that the driver demanded torque in sport mode was not updated from stock only in normal mode. I am doing most of my full pull logging in sport mode. If I remember correctly this log is also post PCV rebuild so if there were any boost leak through the PCV that should have been fixed.
    I did also try just to reduce the maximum TIP-in hold ECM 14118 by one second but I am having a hard time noticing if this has any effect of the reduced TIP-in hold.
    I do see a bit more boost in the latest log during one of the pulls but I am not skilled enough to notice any other major differences. I think it was a much hotter day on the last log.
    I did see some major spark retard during a short pull at 6min 53s into the log so taking some timing out might not be bad. It does seem quite retarded already and the intake temps are low at this point so I don't really understand why it would be knocking. Another thing I can't really say I understand is why it's commanding 100% throttle at 40% pedal.

    Will be doing my suspension and some fitment the coming week but the I might pull the trigger on a EFR-6758 to mitigate the lack of boost

    Log and tune attached.

    Glad to hear you got the PCV issue sorted

    I will look into the Tip-In more but i suspect its a transmission protection so we may need access to transmission tuning to change it

    I think what happened at 6:53 was from only 40% pedal request this was causing your power enrichment map to be disregarded because the starting pedal threshold for enrichment is 65% in the lower rpm range, to remedy this i suggest that you lower the engagement temperature for temp control fueling (ECM 14995) to around 600-620 that way your base target lambda will follow Temp control Base (ECM 14749) sooner and prevent massive retard like you saw from running .95-.92 lambda at 2.5 Bar absolute

    I hope everyone can read this some day because its pretty important for understanding throttle control on Motronics systems, the pedal doesn't directly dictate the throttle but it does request a torque amount under [ECM] 32900 - Optimum Engine Torque, this then gets turned into a load amount (% cylinder filling) in [ECM] 32850 - Torque to Load, the computer then determines how much throttle is required to meet the requested filling this uses a calculation that takes WG cracking pressure into account as past cracking pressure the engine is said to be "unthrottled" and thus the N75 (Boost Control Solenoid) comes into action... so anytime you request more filling (Load) than the engine can make under WG the ecu with send the throttle to 100% and control filling with N75

    hope this helps

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by TylerJDubbs View Post
    I hope everyone can read this some day because its pretty important for understanding throttle control on Motronics systems, the pedal doesn't directly dictate the throttle but it does request a torque amount under [ECM] 32900 - Optimum Engine Torque, this then gets turned into a load amount (% cylinder filling) in [ECM] 32850 - Torque to Load, the computer then determines how much throttle is required to meet the requested filling this uses a calculation that takes WG cracking pressure into account as past cracking pressure the engine is said to be "unthrottled" and thus the N75 (Boost Control Solenoid) comes into action... so anytime you request more filling (Load) than the engine can make under WG the ecu with send the throttle to 100% and control filling with N75
    Yes, sorry for having to explain that again. I think whats still is confusing me is the conversion from pedal% to torque%.

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerJDubbs View Post
    I think what happened at 6:53 was from only 40% pedal request this was causing your power enrichment map to be disregarded because the starting pedal threshold for enrichment is 65% in the lower rpm range, to remedy this i suggest that you lower the engagement temperature for temp control fueling (ECM 14995) to around 600-620 that way your base target lambda will follow Temp control Base (ECM 14749) sooner and prevent massive retard like you saw from running .95-.92 lambda at 2.5 Bar absolute
    Ah! Thanks!
    But why would we want to use pedal as basis for power enrichment instead of torque? [ECM] 14870
    Wouldn't it be more consistent being based on torque?


  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexOlen View Post
    But why would we want to use pedal as basis for power enrichment instead of torque? [ECM] 14870
    Wouldn't it be more consistent being based on torque?
    I'm of the same opinion as you. Some cars, mine included, actually come stock with the power enrichment tables set to all 1s. Fueling is handled primarily by the component protection tables and is based off "actual" load. There's a related, but lengthy, discussion here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/foru...hp?topic=141.0. Note that LAMFA refers to the power enrichment tables and KFLBTS refers to the component protection tables. There's also some good information on the S4 tuning wiki: https://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Open_loop_AFR, although I believe most of the newer ECUs don't have the axis problems that are discussed in the wiki.

    Quote Originally Posted by https://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Open_loop_AFR
    There are three ways to adjust WOT (open loop) requested AFR

    LAMFAW: enrichment based on pedal position (requested torque from KFPED)
    LAMFAWKR: enrichment based on knock recognition
    LAMBTS: enrichment triggered by calculated EGTS passing a threshold
    Final requested AFR will follow the richest set point of the three components.
    My understanding is that one reason to use power enrichment is that it can be a little safer. Using the pedal position, or requested torque, allows the car to dump in fuel well before the actual torque catches up with the request. So if there are sudden spikes or anything, the fuel is already there to prevent it from going lean. One downside to this is that you end up wasting a lot of fuel while the car builds boost to meet the request. On the other hand, keeping the power enrichment table at all 1s and primarily using component protection tables instead will ensure that (once these tables are active) additional fuel is only added as the measured load/boost increases. The big turbo on my car takes longer to spool, so I figure using the power enrichment tables would waste a lot of fuel.

  12. #92
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    You can also change weather power enrichment uses torque based input or pedal based input in the lambda configuration table, I just left it as pedal because the less I change the better normally haha

    I normally use PE for spool up (lean best torque) fueling and then use temp control for full load (Rich best torque/power) fueling

  13. #93
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    Hi,

    OK did try to engage the fuel enrichment from 620 degC. I do see it running richer at the higher exhaust temps but some times it does not seem to be enough (log @ 7:34:855).
    I am running 98 octane and the timings seem conservative to me, but maybe I am missing something.

    And I can't yet get my head around why it's making that much less boost when doing the 1-2-3-4 full pedal pulls compared to the part pedal pulls. Different loading by being in a higher gear and spool time from being on part, low, throttle to full throttle? Compare full pull at 12:45:00 and the short pull after at 13:05:00.

    Cheers!
    /Alex
    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #94
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    Hi guys I am new to the HP tuners forum, found your thread looking for tuning options for my setup, here is a Pic of my PCV setup and a link to my build thread https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...K04-GT45-build PCV.jpg

  15. #95
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    Hey Alex!!!

    Started to work up a version of your PCV adaptations but ran into a little motor issue (Several collapsed lifters!!! details in my thread).

    I thought I'd share with you in the meantime. I liked the idea but my plate was slightly different that yours meaning that I had to address things a little differently.

    I also tried to address the possibilities of FOD (Foreign Object Damage) from hardware coming loose and traveling to remote places in the motor causing as much damage as possible along the way.

    Tell me what you think...

    PCV - 1.jpgPCV - 2.jpgPCV - 3.jpg

    I wasn't sure of your cross over dimensions, and mine has the port fairly close to the plate level, so I took what I felt safe with and let it go at that.

    I think I'll get some additional help from the sealing of the opening. The cross baffle rests right on the plate and it virtually seals the passage, so any gasses should take the path of least resistance, right?

    PCV - 4.jpgPCV - 5.jpgPCV - 7.jpg

    Everything is covered and all hardware is welded for security. All the bolts are threaded and LocTited into the cover as well.

    PCV - 8.jpgPCV - 9.jpg

    It looks ugly at the moment, but if this works well enough, I'll pull it and Cerakote it all again!

    Cheers!

    Ken

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by mukhery View Post
    Here's a picture of my setup. ....
    Mukhery!

    I think I got most of the oil issues figured out from Alex's PCV plate modifications. I'm just left trying to figure out how you dumped the crankcase pressure.

    I might have missed it or mis-understood it, but this is how you are dumping the excessive psi overboard, correct?

    Wonder Hose.jpg

    Can you tell me the parts you used (or repeat if I just can't read properly). I have the motor apart and I think I can tap this into the PCV plate, keeping the head untouched.

    Side question for you though... as I have been reading a lot about Crankcase over-pressurization and the losses/gains seen when it's dealt with. Some large turbo applications saw 20hp increases when they took the case from 6psi to ~1psi!! Did you ever measure and see what you are getting from the case in terms of PSI? What kind of CFM... low or tons?!? Did you notice any changes in power delivery when you did this?

    Free HP is always a good thing and for little effort... I'm game!

    Thanks!

    Ken

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGP View Post
    Hi guys I am new to the HP tuners forum, found your thread looking for tuning options for my setup, here is a Pic of my PCV setup and a link to my build thread https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...K04-GT45-build PCV.jpg
    Hi LAGP,

    Real serious build you going on there! Really like some of your solutions. Wish I knew about the water pump housing with electronic thermostat before. Don't know if or how I would be able to incorporate it in my build but I have been looking for a electronic thermostat option for my build.

    How did you seal the hose coupler for the throttle body? I might need to do something similar to mine. Right now I have bonded a strip of silicone rubber sheet to the inside of my coupler to grab on to the 3.0 TFSI throttle body.

    Regarding my crude PCV solution it seems to be working OK for the moment. At least good enough for me to not change it in a near future

    I'll revisit your build thread when I have more time and welcome to the HP tuners community!

    Cheers!!
    /Alex

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botbasher View Post
    Hey Alex!!!

    Started to work up a version of your PCV adaptations but ran into a little motor issue (Several collapsed lifters!!! details in my thread).

    I thought I'd share with you in the meantime. I liked the idea but my plate was slightly different that yours meaning that I had to address things a little differently.

    I also tried to address the possibilities of FOD (Foreign Object Damage) from hardware coming loose and traveling to remote places in the motor causing as much damage as possible along the way.

    Tell me what you think...

    PCV - 1.jpgPCV - 2.jpgPCV - 3.jpg

    I wasn't sure of your cross over dimensions, and mine has the port fairly close to the plate level, so I took what I felt safe with and let it go at that.

    I think I'll get some additional help from the sealing of the opening. The cross baffle rests right on the plate and it virtually seals the passage, so any gasses should take the path of least resistance, right?

    PCV - 4.jpgPCV - 5.jpgPCV - 7.jpg

    Everything is covered and all hardware is welded for security. All the bolts are threaded and LocTited into the cover as well.

    PCV - 8.jpgPCV - 9.jpg

    It looks ugly at the moment, but if this works well enough, I'll pull it and Cerakote it all again!

    Cheers!

    Ken
    Hi Ken,

    Wow I'm humbled that anyone actually dares to try some of my ghetto solutions
    But it still works really well for my setup, I don't have to empty the catch can very often at all.

    Your solution looks nice. I like that you were able to use the uncut gasket at the inlet to the adapter plate and the welded hardware is probably a very good idea. I do not currently have a welder at home otherwise i think a lot of my solutions would have look very different.

    I have to ask why you chose to keep an opening at the narrow part of your new block-off plate? From my first plate revision I suspect oil might splash up even in this area but please let me know how your solution performs since I am still not sure what was the largest issue with the unmodified adapter plate.



    /Alex

  19. #99
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    Hey Alex!

    Well... it sounded like a sane & sound idea... I figured what's the worst could happen?!?! Honestly... the logic was good and after seeing your take on it and following along on the OEM piece, I couldn't see why not! It's all reversible or replaceable anyway. As long as it doesn't damage the motor I'm all for learning!




    So by narrow portion I presume you mean this section?

    PCV - 4 - Narrow.jpg


    When I looked at the head, there is a sub-level divider right in there...

    20180519_211359.jpg


    So no matter what I do there was never going to be a "seal", but since it's an aluminum plate, I can bend it down to seal as best it will if I am seeing excessive liquid come through there. I figured since this was the drain side and I'm deep into the pocket there that it really shouldn't be much of an issue.

    I'm anxious to see how it works. I've got quite a baseline to work from having used the plate about 2 years now. Looking forward to much less frequent dumps!!

    FYI - Shhhhh I borrowed the welder at work!!!

    Cheers!

    Ken

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Botbasher View Post
    FYI - Shhhhh I borrowed the welder at work!!!
    Haha nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Botbasher View Post
    So by narrow portion I presume you mean this section?

    PCV - 4 - Narrow.jpg
    Exactly. Yeah OK maybe your adapter plate is a bit different to mine. I extended the aluminum lid to seal up the entire underside of the adapter plate.

    Cheers!